Life In 19x19
http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Growth
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3820		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Mon May 09, 2011 5:24 am ]
Post subject:  Growth
Today, I was sitting at my desk with an Open Game, waiting for someone to challenge me. It's what I often do. Because I have a ~ most players won't accept my challenges, and so I wait for challenges to find me. And they often do.

I rarely accept the challenges of weaker players, however. Part of me always thought that I was afraid of losing my rank. Since I began playing last June, I've gained roughly 1 level each month. I remember how hard it was just to finally break past 15k. And then 12k. And now here I am sitting at 9k, still rarely accepting the challenges of weaker players...

But today, I decided to break the mold and play a 15k. They requested an even game. I agreed with the knowledge if this was a sandbagger, I was doomed to fall back to 10k. However, I've noticed I don't quite mind that too much. I'm not as rank obsessed as I used to be, although I would definitely enjoy rising to 8k some time soon.

Anyway, we were barely 10 moves into the game when I knew it was a bad idea to accept. And not because I was losing, but because I knew I would win. I would win big. Sometimes you get that feeling. And so by mid-game, it was over. I was busy trying to hold back, but the weaknesses that could be taken advantage of were quite appealing. And so I struck. Brutally. Of course, a stronger player could have easily blocked my efforts, this 15k could not.

It left a sour taste in my mouth. And now I know why I do not generally play weaker players. Perhaps a handicap would have evened it out more. But I still feel terrible about the game. I even apologized for winning!

It felt like a tainted victory. I play weak bots all the time, but since they're artificial intelligence, I could care less about destroying them. It's playing weaker human players that seems to get to me. I guess It's because I was there, still am I suppose, and know how rough it can be.

However, on a positive note, it really helped me realize just how far I've come in my almost 1 year of playing experience. I'm not sure if gaining one rank a month is slow or not, but a part of me felt proud of how far I've come.

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to get these thoughts out.

(I considered putting this in the Creative Writing section, but I couldn't decide if it belonged there so I just put it here instead. :P)
Author:  Horibe [ Mon May 09, 2011 6:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
Well I hope you learned your lesson. No one should every play anyone weaker than them on KGS. It would be a much more interesting place that way.

There is nothing worse than having the opportunity to give back what you have learned from others. Life is way too short to waste your time doing that.
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Mon May 09, 2011 6:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
Horibe wrote:
Well I hope you learned your lesson. No one should every play anyone weaker than them on KGS. It would be a much more interesting place that way.

There is nothing worse than having the opportunity to give back what you have learned from others. Life is way too short to waste your time doing that.


I sense sarcasm here. Before you say things like that, you should know the person before making such comments. I have tried to help weaker players before and I often stumble over my words or have troubles explaining things and so in the end it doesn't make any sense.

Case in point, I tried teaching my girlfriend how to play and I ended up having to get help just doing that. As a matter of fact, I also taught my best friend how to play back when I was in the 30k's. That didn't go so well either.

So, it's just not something I'm very good at. I was merely saying my experiences with things like this. Perhaps one day I'll gain a clarity that will allow me to assist weaker players, but right now, I do not have that ability. And I would know- I have tried. And that is all.
Author:  Horibe [ Mon May 09, 2011 6:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
Seriously, while you are right, and I do not know you, I have read your other posts, and I at least have a sense that I am speaking to a young go player who is very enthusiastic about the game. And I have met enough young go players to make some assumptions, which may or may not be wrong.

You are of course correct, playing stronger players is the best way to improve, and you seem to follow that philosophy since you acknowledge you have a tilde. I am glad you are proud of your "growth" as related in your post, but I firmly believe that growth as a go player is more than simply getting stronger.

Of course I was sarcastic, but fundamentally, if everyone only plays people stronger than they are, there will be no games.

I take you at your word that teaching is not your strong point as a player - but not teaching is not going to make you a better teacher. You have to work on all aspects of your game, the parts that come easy, and the parts that come hard. You will find that as you strive to explain the things you know about this game, your understanding of what you know will strengthen and increase.

Besides - I am sure when you play a stronger player, and you lose, you do not always get a lesson - in terms of that player explaining things. Nevertheless, you still get a lesson, there is value in testing your skill against someone stronger.

And these are lessons you can already give, even while you work on your word stumbling and teaching technique.
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Mon May 09, 2011 6:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
Horibe wrote:
Seriously, while you are right, and I do not know you, I have read your other posts, and I at least have a sense that I am speaking to a young go player who is very enthusiastic about the game. And I have met enough young go players to make some assumptions, which may or may not be wrong.

You are of course correct, playing stronger players is the best way to improve, and you seem to follow that philosophy since you acknowledge you have a tilde. I am glad you are proud of your "growth" as related in your post, but I firmly believe that growth as a go player is more than simply getting stronger.

Of course I was sarcastic, but fundamentally, if everyone only plays people stronger than they are, there will be no games.

I take you at your word that teaching is not your strong point as a player - but not teaching is not going to make you a better teacher. You have to work on all aspects of your game, the parts that come easy, and the parts that come hard. You will find that as you strive to explain the things you know about this game, your understanding of what you know will strengthen and increase.

Besides - I am sure when you play a stronger player, and you lose, you do not always get a lesson - in terms of that player explaining things. Nevertheless, you still get a lesson, there is value in testing your skill against someone stronger.

And these are lessons you can already give, even while you work on your word stumbling and teaching technique.


These are things I have already been told. And so I have tried. I can't quite remember who told me that teaching can improve your own game, but it was someone in this forum.

I won't disagree with the fact that there are good things to be learned by playing stronger players. It's how I learned. It's how everyone learns. But not everyone is cut out for teaching. However, as I said, perhaps some time soon I can get more accustomed to playing weaker players and giving pointers.

I would love to give the gift that I have been given, and I do try. Currently I'm still, sort of anyway, teaching my girlfriend how to play. And it's just from those little sessions that I know I'm not very good. But I use that as a way to improve my teaching abilities as well as helping her out. Of course she's been too preoccupied lately to really learn much the past few days.

Anyway, I'll just close by saying you probably could have been a little more polite about it. This issue has long been something on my mind. And it's something I plan to do more of. Oh, and by the way, I'm 20. I guess that's still pretty young and all. But, just thought I'd say that. :P
Author:  Li Kao [ Mon May 09, 2011 6:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
Your opponent knew what he was getting into. If I play a stronger player even I expect to get destroyed.
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Mon May 09, 2011 6:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
Li Kao wrote:
Your opponent knew what he was getting into. If I play a stronger player even I expect to get destroyed.


You have a point there. I guess I'm just more used to being on the "being destroyed" end of things. lol
Author:  topazg [ Mon May 09, 2011 6:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
I actually have a fair amount of respect for what hailthorn said, and where he's coming from. The idea of being the big bully does kind of suck, particularly if you felt like you were being bullied as a weaker player and don't want to be the same.

In case it helps hailthorn, I really rather enjoy getting bullied by 5d+ players on KGS. Regardless of the result, my improvement benefits a lot from seeing the moves of stronger players pummel my understanding of the game, and I suspect the majority of weaker players that really want to get stronger will enjoy you beating them up. Believe me and the others in the thread when we say you contribute to the Go community as a whole by beating up weaker players on a regular basis - just offer a few comments at the end if they ask, and enjoy being beaten around the board yourself when you get the chance ;)
Author:  Solomon [ Mon May 09, 2011 7:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
Giving can be as simple as playing a game where you take White. If everyone decided to 'rarely accept the challenges of weaker players', there wouldn't be very many games now would there? There is a reason behind the ~, from the KGS help files:
Quote:
This mark was introduced onto the server in order to allow those players who expect a level of reciprocity to avoid giving games to weaker players who act more selfishly. It is obvious that if everyone were only willing to play stronger players, there would never be any games.
Author:  Horibe [ Mon May 09, 2011 7:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
Two points and I will close -

topazg - of course I have no problem with not wanting to be a bully. I felt, however, that this laudable feeling could be just an excuse for not doing something (playing weaker players) that I consider very important.

haithorne - of course I could have been more polite - but I would submit that it would not have had the same impact, nor would it have led to the exchange that has occurred. I admire your enthusiasm and envy your youth (yes, 20 certainly qualifies as young for me) I am just hoping you channel that youthful enthusiasm in a way which best serves you and the go community.

From your posts, I believe you are off to a great start - I apologize if my way of making my point struck the vital point too hard, but I wanted the point to be made in a way that would resonate.
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Mon May 09, 2011 7:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
Araban wrote:
Giving can be as simple as playing a game where you take White. If everyone decided to 'rarely accept the challenges of weaker players', there wouldn't be very many games now would there? There is a reason behind the ~, from the KGS help files:
Quote:
This mark was introduced onto the server in order to allow those players who expect a level of reciprocity to avoid giving games to weaker players who act more selfishly. It is obvious that if everyone were only willing to play stronger players, there would never be any games.


I already knew that. :P
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Mon May 09, 2011 7:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
Horibe wrote:
Two points and I will close -

topazg - of course I have no problem with not wanting to be a bully. I felt, however, that this laudable feeling could be just an excuse for not doing something (playing weaker players) that I consider very important.

haithorne - of course I could have been more polite - but I would submit that it would not have had the same impact, nor would it have led to the exchange that has occurred. I admire your enthusiasm and envy your youth (yes, 20 certainly qualifies as young for me) I am just hoping you channel that youthful enthusiasm in a way which best serves you and the go community.

From your posts, I believe you are off to a great start - I apologize if my way of making my point struck the vital point too hard, but I wanted the point to be made in a way that would resonate.


I understand what you meant. It's fine. I would love to help players improve. Really. I just haven't really thought my teaching abilities are on par with everything else. Of course, maybe I'll try it some more with more people than just people I know.
Author:  perceval [ Mon May 09, 2011 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
i think you can really learn form playing a game with a weaker player, if you give them proper handicap.
starting a game when you give 4 stone to an opponent, when you are more in the habit of getting those 4 stones from your betters, is a strange and frightening experience.
You'll probably get hammered a couple of time at start and learn something in the process.
If the weaker insist on playing even, you should alleviate (is that an english word ?) your guilty feeling by offering a review. just pointing what you considered big mistake should be some help, You have more things to teach as a 6k than a 30k.
Teaching things often allows one to have a fresh look on them (i am not speaking of my go experience here but i think it should transpose to any activity)
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Mon May 09, 2011 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
Just playing a weaker player, without comments, is often lesson enough. Not every game needs a detailed review. Or, if you feel like it, try to just point out the single worst move in the game, and offer an alternative. I tend to do my reviewing in person at club, KGS is good for that but it's nothing like being in the same room with someone.

If they ask to play without handi, you are not bullying them when you crush them-- if they've played more than one game they should know what is about to happen. Presumably you would not be terribly surprised to lose big in an even game with a 4k.

Plus, I've found that it's sometimes harder to correctly deal with crap than it is to play against "good" moves. You need to play players your own level and a bit weaker to learn how. (As you get stronger, the definition of "crap" changes... ^^)

So... play weaker players. :) I don't think it takes too many games to lose the ~.
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Mon May 09, 2011 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
Okay, you've all convinced me. I'll start playing lower level players and try offering advice. I have always felt bad about this because when I was 15k-12k roughly, I had a great teacher on KGS called "kaveth" and I can say that without his help I'd probably still be around 13k or so. Maybe not, but he definitely helped me get over the 15k hurdle.

Perhaps I can do something like this. :P I doubt it, but I'll certainly try!

@daniel_the_smith- I wish I could play Go in person. That's part of why I hate where I live because the Go clubs in my area are too far away. I even tried to start one here, but...I didn't get any interest. Or maybe I marketed wrong. (I did this via Craigslist lol).
Author:  jts [ Mon May 09, 2011 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
Hailthorn, when you play weaker players, do you give a handicap? Part of the beauty of go is that whether you play a 1k or a 19 k, neither of you should crush the other, provided you use an appropriate handicap.
Author:  Toge [ Mon May 09, 2011 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
Playing weaker players can be as simple as accepting games from those who are one rank lower than you. You get adequate challenge without having to change your fuseki against handicap stones.
Author:  palapiku [ Mon May 09, 2011 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
For that matter, you don't necessarily need to give any advice to someone 1 or 2 ranks below you. It's not that big a difference in skill.
Author:  oren [ Mon May 09, 2011 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
hailthorn011 wrote:
Today, I was sitting at my desk with an Open Game, waiting for someone to challenge me. It's what I often do. Because I have a ~ most players won't accept my challenges, and so I wait for challenges to find me. And they often do.


Why not just hit automatch?
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Mon May 09, 2011 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Growth
oren wrote:
hailthorn011 wrote:
Today, I was sitting at my desk with an Open Game, waiting for someone to challenge me. It's what I often do. Because I have a ~ most players won't accept my challenges, and so I wait for challenges to find me. And they often do.


Why not just hit automatch?


It doesn't bother me to wait. lol
Page 1 of 3 All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/