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Change of style
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4641		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Stevenson [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Change of style
Hey,

I was reading an article about Starcraft pro player Lim Yo-Hwan, and the author said: "Lim has managed to stay competitive by constantly changing his style". I was curious if this applies to Go as well. I remember that Lee Changho definitively changed his style of playing.

As for myself, I'm very alert to territory, that's why I never play moyo games (e.g. san-ren-sei fuseki). What do you think, might change of style improve/diverse your game?
Author:  emeraldemon [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
I think my style is best described as "at least three massive blunders every game". I'm working hard to change to the "two massive blunders per game" style.
Author:  amnal [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
I think comments like this, in their original context, apply on a higher level of understanding than we'll ever attain - for starcraft and Go alike ;)

That said, I also think that there's a definite benefit to altering our perceived styles. I don't believe one can properly understand how a position works without being on both sides of it. At the very least, I think understanding can be gained much more quickly this way.
Author:  Laman [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
for kyus: it is said (somewhere) that for fastest improvement you should always keep trying new things and once you become familiar with something (like a particular fuseki), you should move away to something else. otherwise you can happily play what do you like

for top players like Lee Changho: i think any reasonable style can work when sufficiently mastered but not every style can work against every other, so players have to adjust in order to beat their actual opponents

for Kami no Itte: there is only one move, no style-choice left
Author:  Hushfield [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
Experimenting with different syles of play is something that should be part of everybody's go study. I changed to a much more agressive fighting style after I heard a few lectures by Guo Juan, in which she pointed out that anybody that plays a fighting style, can revert to a more calm style of play, while the opposite is much harder. Attacking weak groups, which for weaker players like myself often results in overplays, is one of the fastest ways to learn how to punish those overplays. Again it's Guo Juan that said she'd prefer a weaker player make a lot of overplays, rather than moves which are too timid.
Author:  Mef [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
I think another point where this might be more "relevant" at high levels, is that it is more common at higher levels to analyze the games of your opponent in preparation for a big match. If you have been playing the same way for years, that gives your future opponents more fodder for studying to find your habits and weaknesses, while if you change it up it is more difficult. It might not be that changing a style necessarily makes you play better, so much as makes it more difficult for your opponent to find a good way to play against you.
Author:  tapir [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
I sometimes found that I changed my style without consciously trying to do so. Often this is related to new insights and a better understanding. Deliberately changing your style, trying new things might not guarantee new insights, but at least it offers a good chance, many players who don't improve do so because they fell in love with choices once made (incl. mistakes, bad habits) and have a very hard time to change them ever. E.g. greedy play, inability to sacrifice, stubborn play, reluctance to defend, timidity, not counting, not having ko in your playing repertoire, disregarding the center, disregarding the endgame - you can find many of these fallacies up to pretty high levels of play, trying new styles may force you to change some of them to make that style work. Even if you change again later, the worst that can happen to you is that you learn something.
Author:  entropi [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
My style (if it exists at all) depends too much on my opponents play. If my opponent tries to make a big moyo, I automatically go for territorial style, or the other way round. If my opponents cuts everywhere, I also cut him back whenever I feel appropriate. I anyway suffer from not being able to find good moves in any given position. I am not sure whether further restricting myself to a certain style would help me in that.

As a matter of fact, I believe the concept of style does not fit to kyu level play anyway. If I cannot sing all the notes correctly, what's the point of trying to change my singing "style"?
Author:  p2501 [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
entropi wrote:
My style (if it exists at all) depends too much on my opponents play. If my opponent tries to make a big moyo, I automatically go for territorial style, or the other way round. If my opponents cuts everywhere, I also cut him back whenever I feel appropriate. I anyway suffer from not being able to find good moves in any given position. I am not sure whether further restricting myself to a certain style would help me in that.

As a matter of fact, I believe the concept of style does not fit to kyu level play anyway. If I cannot sing all the notes correctly, what's the point of trying to change my singing "style"?

Maybe one shouldn't chose a specific style to play (other than for studying purposes). I guess if you play the way you like/feel/are comfortable, your style will emerge all by itself. Though hard to specify as it may not be as clear cut as for Lee Chango / Takemiya Masaski / Go Seigen / Seo Bong Soo / ..
Author:  gowan [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
The great Japanese player Kato Masao, when he was working his way up through the ranks used to pick a fuseki style and use it exclusively until he felt he knew it through and through, then he would change to a different one. It really is necessary to learn to play in most fuseki styles because, as was pointed out above, you have to adapt to what your opponent does. If you are playing White and your opponent (Black) chooses a moyo oriented style it is usually a mistake for White to play for a large moyo because Black is one step ahead in moyo development due to having the first move. Also, if your opponent has built low strong positions it is usually not effective to try for a large moyo because your opponent's thickness makes development of the moyo difficult or sub-optimal.
Author:  Toge [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
entropi wrote:
As a matter of fact, I believe the concept of style does not fit to kyu level play anyway. If I cannot sing all the notes correctly, what's the point of trying to change my singing "style"?


- Set of weaknesses can also define the style. If somebody does nothing but tsumego problems to progress, his style reflects the increase in reading out complex situations. There comes a point when opponents are good enough to defend correctly and they also have other skills, such as counting and estimating that overcome their relative lack of reading, so that games end up in 50% chance to win for either player.
Author:  Kirby [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
IIRC, Yilun Yang says that we should not have style as amateurs. In particular, amateurs avoid playing in certain ways (eg. avoid moyos, etc.), because of their "style". I think he said amateurs should try to always play "the best move", regardless of "style".
Author:  lovely [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
When I first started playing, and up to around a few months ago, I played a suicidal game; something had to die for me to win.

However, in the last few months I've been experimenting and trying to play what I called a "paced" style; playing flexibly, but mostly opting for big moves and sometimes slowing down to play something small that will ultimately lead to bigger rewards. Sure, I still kill a big dragon here and there, but my root style I suppose is to play thick and use that thickness to push my opponent around.
Author:  Laman [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
Kirby wrote:
IIRC, Yilun Yang says that we should not have style as amateurs. In particular, amateurs avoid playing in certain ways (eg. avoid moyos, etc.), because of their "style". I think he said amateurs should try to always play "the best move", regardless of "style".

i've got a feeling there are different uses of "style". of course one shouldn't play a move because it is his style to play such a move. but obviously everyone has a more or less unique style. for me style is your signature, it is the order in which moves come to your mind before you evaluate them as good or bad, which move you choose if you can't decide which one is objectively better, set of positions and games where you feel good and comfortable while in others, equally good, you just don't feel this way, ...

your style can change, even drastically and it changes easier when you are weak and can learn that some of your trademark moves are actually mistakes. and you can change it consciously if work for it. but i think it is impossible to root it out altogether and play without a style. (though i recall that Cho Chikun once said that most characteristic for his style is absence of a specific style)
Author:  daal [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
gowan wrote:
If you are playing White and your opponent (Black) chooses a moyo oriented style it is usually a mistake for White to play for a large moyo because Black is one step ahead in moyo development due to having the first move. Also, if your opponent has built low strong positions it is usually not effective to try for a large moyo because your opponent's thickness makes development of the moyo difficult or sub-optimal.


I just read this again, because I'm never sure how to react to my opponent's strategic choices early in the game and this seems like a good guideline, but on second read, it seems to be saying that white should pretty much never try to make a large moyo. Is this right, or is there some sort of black fuseki that's neither moyo-oriented nor creates low strong positions that would make a white moyo attractive?
Author:  draculinio [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
I am changing my way to play, I think that at the end it will make me improve a lot, but right now I am playing 2 or 3 stones worst than common. Is that something that happens?

Don´t know really if it is a "change of style" or "improving of style" (I think that is something in the middle, dunno how to explain this in words).
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
Amateurs don't have styles, just preferred mistakes...
Author:  amnal [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
Why can't a series of preferred mistakes constitute a style? That seems quite unfair ;)
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
I don't consciously think about style during a game. I just try to play what I think is the best move. A "Dusk Eagle" style emerges from my own reading and evaluating strengths and weaknesses, my blind spots, etc.. As my strengths and weaknesses change my style therefore changes as well. Now, I obviously can decide, "okay, this game I'm going to put extra focus on building moyo," but I don't usually consciously decide that except for the purpose of choosing my first few moves when I'm playing black. After that, I don't think I think about my own "style" at all.
Author:  Chew Terr [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change of style
I have definitely made efforts to change my playstyle, and have done it for two reasons.

1) I used too play too aggressively and thinly, and kept having too many weaknesses, so I am trying to learn a slightly more solid style where I actually cover some of my positional flaws.
2) If there is a concept I am uncomfortable with (most recently using influence), I adopt a method of play that forces me to interact with it more. As a result, I have been playing openings with lots of 4-4s, and have been taking walls when offered more often. We'll see if I'm better with it, but I'm a little more comfortable with the idea.
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