Life In 19x19
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The Greed Factor
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=515		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Kirby [ Wed May 12, 2010 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  The Greed Factor
I think that I'm sometimes greedy when I'm playing go. I see the opponent's territory, and I don't like it, so I sometimes do something crazy to try to get more points.

It's not an issue of counting, I think, because there have been a number of games where I've counted myself as being ahead -- but still try to do something crazy to take away the opponent's points. To me, if the game is within 10 or 15 points, I feel it is too close for comfort. I don't really feel at ease unless I feel that I'm maybe 20 or 30 points ahead.

Are any of you "greedy" players? What do you do to be more patient?
Author:  Li Kao [ Wed May 12, 2010 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor
You can't be as greedy as me. I want more and MORE even when I'm 100 points ahead.
Must crush, kill and destroy.
Author:  kirkmc [ Wed May 12, 2010 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor
Kirby wrote:
I think that I'm sometimes greedy when I'm playing go. I see the opponent's territory, and I don't like it, so I sometimes do something crazy to try to get more points.

It's not an issue of counting, I think, because there have been a number of games where I've counted myself as being ahead -- but still try to do something crazy to take away the opponent's points. To me, if the game is within 10 or 15 points, I feel it is too close for comfort. I don't really feel at ease unless I feel that I'm maybe 20 or 30 points ahead.

Are any of you "greedy" players? What do you do to be more patient?


Yuan Zhou's book How Not to Play Go discusses this. It's a big problem for weak players, and I am guilty of it too. I try now to pay more attention to my territory, and, if I'm ahead, don't play ridiculous moves to try and reduce my opponent, but rather defend my territory.
Author:  phrax [ Wed May 12, 2010 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor
All I can think of is Gordon Gekko and "Greed, for lack of a better word, is good."

Reference (for the non-80s-financial-movies initiated): Wall Street

I'm the opposite, as a conservative player I have a tendency to coast/protect my lead when I think I'm ahead. Which sadly costs me some games when I misjudge or coast too early... So I usually have to remind myself to keep the pressure on, even late in the game.

Probably the only real solution to both problems is to play for a resignation, so we don't have to worry about that cumbersome counting at the end :)
Author:  HKA [ Wed May 12, 2010 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor -
Kirby wrote:
It's not an issue of counting, I think, because there have been a number of games where I've counted myself as being ahead -- but still try to do something crazy to take away the opponent's points. To me, if the game is within 10 or 15 points, I feel it is too close for comfort. I don't really feel at ease unless I feel that I'm maybe 20 or 30 points ahead.

Are any of you "greedy" players? What do you do to be more patient?


Kirby, the issue you have, as you describe it above, does not strike me as greedy - I think it is a different problem.

Please don't be insulted, I think I suffer from it too, and I think it is quite common.

I think we are lazy.

We know we are ahead, and with a careful and calculating endgame, we should be content to simply slowly wrap up the game. Or perhaps wait for the unreasonable move by the opponent trying to catch up, and punish it. But that takes alot of thinking.

Instead, we try something we cannot be sure of to force an end of the game. Often it works, after all, there is a good chance we are stronger, since we have built a palpable lead, but when it fails, we are appalled with ourselves. To me, that is not greed, it is more, as you say in your post, but not in the title - a lack of patience.

So I would say no I am not a greedy player, I am a lazy player. Pick your sin, greed or sloth.

By the way, there is a difference between playing a proper attack or sequence that you know works when you are ahead, and being greedy. For me, greedy is taking a game you know is absolutley won and going for unecessary complications to get more, plunging a won game into one bubbling with aji.
Author:  Kirby [ Wed May 12, 2010 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor -
HKA wrote:

Kirby, the issue you have, as you describe it above, does not strike me as greedy - I think it is a different problem.

Please don't be insulted, I think I suffer from it too, and I think it is quite common.

I think we are lazy.

...


OK, I'll call it lazy :) At a workshop, Kim Myungwan said I was "jealous", but I picked the word "greedy" here. Lazy is another word to describe this situation, I think, but the difference in meaning actually seems beneficial for improvement. Thinking that I'm "greedy" or "jealous" is a lot easier to deal with than thinking that I'm "lazy". Thanks for this perspective. I think that it's something that I should think about a bit more.

By the way, do you think that I have issues other than "as I've described above"? :)

Thanks for the responses from everyone else, too.
Author:  Laman [ Wed May 12, 2010 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor
i also use to play greedy moves, but i see a different reason than those mentioned here so far. i am not enough self-confident. when i look at the board i just feel i am behind, oponent's teritory look terribly big compared to mine, so i start some desperate fight to counter that, sometimes succesfully, sometimes to make things even worse in the end. but, when i later analyse the positions, i often find out, that my estimation was wrong, that i was not behind at all.

so for me, the solution is to properly count the score during the game, then i am able to play normally

PS: it was funny on my last tournament, in one game both I and my oponent thought most of time that we were losing and shortly after i started to think that i was not losing so badly, my oponent resigned, because i was actually winning
Author:  Magicwand [ Wed May 12, 2010 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor
remember!!
some situation calls for greed.
you might think you will lose the fight but still have to fight.
everyone will see me playing greedy when i play Kerby 3 stone. :) ;-) :mrgreen:
Author:  Kirby [ Wed May 12, 2010 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor
Magicwand wrote:
remember!!
some situation calls for greed.
you might think you will lose the fight but still have to fight.
everyone will see me playing greedy when i play Kerby 3 stone. :) ;-) :mrgreen:


I just hope that I can stop you before 9 stones. :-S
Author:  Phelan [ Thu May 13, 2010 7:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor
I'm greedy, but not for territory, for influence. Doesn't help me that much either. A lot of my games end in resignation, mine or my opponent's.
Author:  TMark [ Fri May 14, 2010 1:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor
There is also another aspect of this factor, knowing when to stop pushing. Too many times I have seen the chance to play sente pushes to gain a point or two, before I need to go back to connect a weakness, only to find that the last push is not sente and I lose the lot. I can remember doing it to others a couple of times but it is painful to remember the times I did it wrong. In this case greed is a capital offence, punishible by death (of your stones).

Best wishes.
Author:  Solomon [ Fri May 14, 2010 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor
I'm not greedy, I'm just curious.
Author:  Fedya [ Fri May 14, 2010 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor
I'm not very good at estimating the score, so if I play a "greedy" move, it's probably because I think I'm behind.

I've had games where I thought I was behind by 5 or 10 points but lost by 40, and games where my opponent questions why I resigned. :mad:
Author:  HKA [ Fri May 14, 2010 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor
Fedya wrote:
I'm not very good at estimating the score, so if I play a "greedy" move, it's probably because I think I'm behind.

I've had games where I thought I was behind by 5 or 10 points but lost by 40, and games where my opponent questions why I resigned. :mad:


If you think you are behind - an objectively "greedy" move is not "greedy". I think this is what Magicwand was driving at, if you are behind, then you must be greedy.

You can only be greedy if you know you are going for more than you need - at least in the context of how Kirby started the thread.

"Overplay" is more objective - it is too much regardless of your motivation, and whether it succeeds or not.

Now, at your level your count should not be off by that much, so I might chide you "lazy" on that basis, as I do with myself. With a reasonable amount of effort, judgment errors of more than 20 pts should disapear.

By the way - u have to explain your avatar - I am hoping it is a shot from "Lady Eve" but...
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Fri May 14, 2010 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor
Last night in a game I counted. I could protect my side territory and let him live and win by 10-15 points. Or I could try and kill. Trying to kill would be a bad idea, I knew, because I couldn't read it out all the way and I didn't need a kill.

So of course, I did the sensible thing and tried to kill.

This happens in lots of my games and I can't understand why I keep playing moves I *know* are wrong.

I lost that game horribly; my side territory died and took another group with it.
Author:  Fedya [ Fri May 14, 2010 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor
HKA wrote:
By the way - u have to explain your avatar - I am hoping it is a shot from "Lady Eve" but...

It is of course Charles Coburn, but I'm not certain which movie it's from.

I think I found it when I was doing a Google search of pictures of Coburn in The Devil and Miss Jones. Coburn actually wore the monocle in real life for a vision problem, and not just for characterization purposes in his movies, so it could be from any of a large number of movies. At any rate, it looks more like a publicity still than a shot from a movie.

I like the grumpy look of the photo, especially since it reminds me of how I feel when things start going wrong at the goban.... :shock:
Author:  Eclectus [ Sun May 16, 2010 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor
I'm a greedy player. I think. I'm not really good enough to identify playing styles...

I also have a bit of a reverse psychology thing going. "Oh, you're trying to secure that corner, eh? Let's see if I can make life." Which I guess is greedy.

The problem is, I can't really balance between being greedy and being aggressive.
Author:  Jonas [ Mon May 17, 2010 3:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor
Back when I was barely a SDK (around 8-10k) I always thought "damn, I could have won if I wouldnt have been so greedy". Then I got some of my games reviewed by youngsun(5P) and she said after every game "oh you played well, but I got the feeling you were a little bit scared in the opening". This was some kind of shock to me, I mean I always thought of my game as the exact opposite!

After playing more and more games I realised that she and I were both right. I lacked fighting spirit in the opening, played slow moves and in the middle game, when I realised that my opponent was far ahead, I started greedy overplays.
I think sometimes I still play to slow in the opening, but nowadays I dont blame the greed-factor for a loss, but the reason why I had to become greedy. I think a very effective way to cure the greed-factor-disease is accurate counting, but on the other side greediness may have some good factors, too ~ f.e. learning sabaki, to become a better fighter etc..

Maybe we should differ between appropriate and not-appropriate greed ;)
Author:  Tommie [ Mon May 17, 2010 6:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor
Laman wrote:
(...) i am not enough self-confident. when i look at the board i just feel i am behind, oponent's teritory look terribly big compared to mine, so i start some desperate fight to counter that, sometimes succesfully, sometimes to make things even worse in the end. (...)
so for me, the solution is to properly count the score during the game, then i am able to play normally


For me it is similar to Laman:
I got the same online analysis by R.v.Zeijst 7d, that 'it might be a lack of enough confidence' (to be sure that one can cope with the endgame).

In general holds:

from the [url]Ten Golden Rules http://senseis.xmp.net/?TheTenGoldenRulesList[/url] it is the first (most important?) Rule which addresses the problem:
Tān bùdé shèng （贪不得胜） - Greediness is not victorious
Author:  Suji [ Thu May 20, 2010 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greed Factor
daniel_the_smith wrote:
Last night in a game I counted. I could protect my side territory and let him live and win by 10-15 points. Or I could try and kill. Trying to kill would be a bad idea, I knew, because I couldn't read it out all the way and I didn't need a kill.

So of course, I did the sensible thing and tried to kill.

This happens in lots of my games and I can't understand why I keep playing moves I *know* are wrong.

I lost that game horribly; my side territory died and took another group with it.


LOL... :lol: That's funny...At least you knew the probable result before you tried to kill the group. I have the same problem in *any* strategy game.

If people are familiar with chess, there was a player by the name of Mikhail Tal who liked to sacrifice and a large amount of his games saw him sacrifice material in the search of an attack and sometimes created unfathomable complications even if the initial sacrifice wasn't sound. It didn't matter who his opponent was he sacrificed material. Sometimes he did this to attack, but I suspect in the majority of games when he sacrificed a piece or two it was for an interesting game.

He won most of them if he sacrificed, because he was one of the best if not the best attacker chess has produced.

So, I suppose that when we play moves we know are bad, we are doing it for an interesting game.

I wouldn't say that when you failed to kill your opponent's stones, you played incorrectly at that crossroads. Much more likely is that your mistake came after that point. After all, we all have our own individual styles and we play the moves that fit our style more than the moves that don't.

As for being greedy, isn't that kinda the point? I mean, how else are we supposed to win?
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