Play where your opponent would want to play

Kirby · #1

Recently Tami made a very interesting post giving 4 principles amateurs don't seem to get (viewtopic.php?f=57&t=4843).

One principle, play where your opponent would want to play, sometimes bothers me. Consider the following local position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Lets say black just played the last move. In similar situations, I've seen pros extend:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . . W . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Ok, cool. But if I were black and had sente, I feel much better to play here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . B . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Do you literally play where the opponent would play, or just the vicinity?

I have another example if it turns out being needed.

HermanHiddema · #2

Like all such proverbs, it is a guideline, which does not always apply, and should not be taken too literally.

The lesson of the proverb is: A good way to find good moves is to think about where your opponent would like to play next, what the goal of his move is, and how you can prevent him from achieving that goal.

In your example, white wants to extend to stabilise his group. Therefore, you want to play in such a way that prevents him from stabilising his group. The way to do that is to prevent his extension. How to prevent it is then up to you, there are several moves you might consider, and you should choose one based on the whole board.

tapir · #3

Kirby wrote:

Do you literally play where the opponent would play, or just the vicinity?

Is this really a question? (Didn't you answer it already?)

There is nothing wrong with not taking proverbs literally, but this doesn't mean one needs to fix them. You will never arrive at a set of rules that you can apply literally. Proverbs do highlight principles and guide your attention to points you might have missed otherwise, they are not at all meant as a set of rules to be applied mindlessly. In fact, I believe even looking for such always-correct-rules-to-best-play is harmful.

Kirby · #4

HermanHiddema wrote:

Like all such proverbs, it is a guideline, which does not always apply, and should not be taken too literally.

The lesson of the proverb is: A good way to find good moves is to think about where your opponent would like to play next, what the goal of his move is, and how you can prevent him from achieving that goal.

In your example, white wants to extend to stabilise his group. Therefore, you want to play in such a way that prevents him from stabilising his group. The way to do that is to prevent his extension. How to prevent it is then up to you, there are several moves you might consider, and you should choose one based on the whole board.

Great explanation. Thanks, herminator. It makes sense to use this as a way as a starting point to find a good objective.

tapir wrote:

Kirby wrote:

Do you literally play where the opponent would play, or just the vicinity?

Is this really a question? (Didn't you answer it already?)

There is nothing wrong with not taking proverbs literally, but this doesn't mean one needs to fix them. You will never arrive at a set of rules that you can apply literally.

Yes, I agree.

Mike Novack · #5

This wasn't a good example except that the proverb pointed out the two best moves.

The point is that you only get to make one move a turn, then your opponent gets to move. Here white will want to stabilize his group and make some territory. When you take one of the desirable points to prevent that your opponent can take the other.

The proper application of this proverb is for situations where the opponent has one most desirable move, not when he or she has the choice between equivalents. Except even in this situation you might consider that the proverb did suggest good moves that preserved sente (if you take one of these moves, what happens if your opponent does not take the other).

Tooveli · #6

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ ----------------- $$ | . O . X . . . . $$ | X . X . X O . . $$ | X X X X O O . . $$ | O O O O . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

The most important go proverb:
Don't follow proverbs blindly

Bill Spight · #7

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ----------------- $$ | . O 1 X . 2 . . $$ | X . X . X O . . $$ | X X X X O O . . $$ | O O O O . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

lightvector · #8

I recall reading that in Gnugo or some other bot development, at one point one of the developers tried giving a bonus for playing at certain points if the opponent would want to play on that specific point.

The result?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ . . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . X O O . $$ . X . X . . X X O . $$ . . . . . . . . O . $$ . . . . . 1 . . . . $$ -------------------[/go]

Play where your opponent would want to play

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