Life In 19x19 :: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)

1000 games to shodan

So, when it comes to Go, I want to have "fun", not "work". "Fun" may occasionally be playing a random match with tight time controls and a rank at stake, but more often it's doing tsumego, playing over a pro game or studying a Go topic that interests me (a fuseki, for example). None of that is as "useful" and "efficient" as playing, but all of it is more fun than dealing with the "anxiety" that frequently comes with playing online or doing something that I don't want to do only because “The truth is that people who don’t play, don’t improve.”

Then I won't improve, but I'll get a lot more enjoyment out of Go that way.

Do computer or small board games count? I've literally lost hundreds of 9x9 and 13x13 games to Smart go, Igowin, and Crazy Stone.

I had a very interesting conversation with a promotional guru at congress this year. His idea was that instead of bashing people for enjoying the game the way they like and criticizing peoples’ moves, we should let people play moves they like to play, study books they like to study, and generally enjoy the game. He argued that our circle would be much better off with three million 25 kyu players than with a handful of 7dan players. I wholeheartedly agree with him.

Koosh wrote:

Yes, Terry Benson has some very unique ideas, and is quite passionate about them. I too agree with him.

I think its why I no longer play go. I'm not trying to improve. I don't want to review each and every move in painstaking detail after every game. I don't care if I don't win the tournament.

I enjoy the game. It would be nice if I can eventually get better, but its no longer necessary for my enjoyment of the game. I like teaching beginners. I don't need to be pro or even dan level to do so.

Sometimes, I just want to play, without having to put too much thought into the game.

I think its why I no longer play go. I'm not trying to improve. I don't want to review each and every move in painstaking detail after every game. I don't care if I don't win the tournament.

Your bound to run into people who are crazy obsessive about improving and enjoy showing their enthusiasm on this concept.

I don't see where you said the reason you no longer play go?

Author:	Koosh [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
Some people call it loss aversion. Some people call it rank obsession. Some people complain that they don’t have enough time to invest in a game. Some call it ladder anxiety. Regardless of the reasons for feeling nervous and not playing today, right now, here is some advice from a 6 dan professional. “The truth is that people who don’t play, don’t improve.” You can study tsumego until your eyes roll into the back of your head. Without playing, you won’t be able to break into the truly strong ranks. My particular excuse for not playing was that I was afraid of making the same mistakes over and over again. I thought that it would solidify these mistakes into some pattern I could never unlearn. So, I chose to study hundreds of tsumego problems and review many pro games before I played even one game. When I mentioned this to the pro, he told me that I was crazy and that there were no negative points about playing a lot of games. Imagine that? So don’t be nervous. Even if you lose, grumble about it and laugh but promise the guy you lost to that you'll return with a longer stick. Agree or disagree, let's discuss.

Author:	Solomon [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
Similar advice, but from a Starcraft professional: "More gg, more skill".

Author:	palapiku [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
1000 games to shodan

Author:	Koosh [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
palapiku wrote: 1000 games to shodan And after shodan? I am not sure if this is true nor how I can check the statistic, but I've heard that roughly 25% of AGA members are currently shodan. Shodan is not the truly strong rank (5d+) that I was referring to while I am sure the advice remains sound. Come to think of it, as a shodan, I think I've only played about 1000 games...

Author:	Mivo [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
I'm a bit torn on this issue, and I'm not consistent in how I feel about it. On one hand, I do feel like a sluggish procrastinator when it comes to actually playing the game, and I know it hinders or slows down my progress. I'd like to make it to shodan some day, but I'm uncertain if I'm willing to deal with the "discomfort" that comes with working on achieving that goal. Competitive aspects (and that is what it is for me when I start to worry about ranks and progress) are not something I valuein my recreation time. You see, like everyone else I do plenty of things I don't "feel" like doing in my every day job. Be it my boss dumping some social problem with a customer into my lap when I am already running low on social energy and my bag of smiley faces is almost empty, or having to localize another sufficiently large chunk of overly verbose and artsy fantasy text after a tiring day because I can't lose the deadline out of sight. So, when it comes to Go, I want to have "fun", not "work". "Fun" may occasionally be playing a random match with tight time controls and a rank at stake, but more often it's doing tsumego, playing over a pro game or studying a Go topic that interests me (a fuseki, for example). None of that is as "useful" and "efficient" as playing, but all of it is more fun than dealing with the "anxiety" that frequently comes with playing online or doing something that I don't want to do only because “The truth is that people who don’t play, don’t improve.” Then I won't improve, but I'll get a lot more enjoyment out of Go that way.

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

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Author:	karaklis [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
My excuse is that I didn't improve for too long from playing.

Author:	illluck [ Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
My issue is actually the reverse - I prefer to play (admittedly fast, sometimes blitzy, games) rather than working on problems. I concur wholeheartedly with Mivo's opinion in that I value having fun over improvement. Of course, the latter would allow me to enjoy more intricate and complex games, but if I have to do more problems to achieve it, I'm fine with where I'm at :p

Author:	SpongeBob [ Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
I think it is a bad attitude to not play because of 'fear'. Fear basically of losing because of not being at the top of your mental abilities in that moment. Reason is the one mentioned: Improvement comes from playing. Sure, studying is good to learn something new, may it be strategy or life-and-death or whatever. Still you have to apply it in your games in order to gain strength. So instead of wanting to win your games, it is better to want to learn from your games. And often you learn more from a lost game than from a won game. So if I am not in top-notch form, I choose a longer time control so that I still have enough time to think when my brain is working kinda slow, e.g. after a full day of work. Most important reason of all, though: Playing IS fun, right?

Author:	Boidhre [ Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
I do agree with Mivo, I think the most important thing is having fun and if doing problems for half an hour is guaranteed fun versus the possibility of getting a bad mannered opponent online or whatever then there's nothing wrong with setting fun above improvement as your goal. I love playing people I know, I find it relaxes me a lot, I find playing strangers daunting in comparison. A lot of that is anxiety rather than fear of losing, I lose a lot to the people I know! But yes, without the local go club and regularly getting a few games in each week with much stronger players there I think my improvement would have been greatly reduced as I find it harder to find time to put into games online at home with the kids and such (my wife has no problem with me going off for a few hours to play go at the club, she encourages it, but she finds it hard to accept me being in a "do not disturb" zone on the computer in the room beside her if the kids are acting up).

Author:	bleep [ Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
I'd also much rather play than study. I'm a bit surprised that the opposite is even possible! I suppose it's also a function of level - at my level, just playing is proving to be study enough, and I'm improving gradually. If there comes a time when I level off, I suppose I'll pick up a book or three, but I can't see my preference for playing over studying ever changing.

Author:	Koosh [ Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
Mivo wrote: So, when it comes to Go, I want to have "fun", not "work". "Fun" may occasionally be playing a random match with tight time controls and a rank at stake, but more often it's doing tsumego, playing over a pro game or studying a Go topic that interests me (a fuseki, for example). None of that is as "useful" and "efficient" as playing, but all of it is more fun than dealing with the "anxiety" that frequently comes with playing online or doing something that I don't want to do only because “The truth is that people who don’t play, don’t improve.” Then I won't improve, but I'll get a lot more enjoyment out of Go that way. Improvement vs. Enjoyment: Of course, I believe that not a single person here will argue with you. Go is a game (pros may not agree on this point alone) which should be fun and exciting, after all. You should do what you enjoy doing, otherwise Go loses its purpose for you. The post is more geared toward people who like improving, but don't like playing. I wanted it to induce a little shock factor because honestly it has taken me a long time to get over the idea that I can make it far into the dan ranks by completing tsumego alone. It won't. I had a very interesting conversation with a promotional guru at congress this year. His idea was that instead of bashing people for enjoying the game the way they like and criticizing peoples’ moves, we should let people play moves they like to play, study books they like to study, and generally enjoy the game. He argued that our circle would be much better off with three million 25 kyu players than with a handful of 7dan players. I wholeheartedly agree with him. You’ll be able to see his speech when this year’s Go Symposium videos are posted.

Author:	WenMing [ Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
Do computer or small board games count? I've literally lost hundreds of 9x9 and 13x13 games to Smart go, Igowin, and Crazy Stone.

Author:	oren [ Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
WenMing wrote: Do computer or small board games count? I've literally lost hundreds of 9x9 and 13x13 games to Smart go, Igowin, and Crazy Stone. For me, not really. I don't even think at all when playing against computer, so I don't gain anything. It's just a time killer. It depends how you go into it.

Author:	Koosh [ Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
WenMing wrote: Do computer or small board games count? I've literally lost hundreds of 9x9 and 13x13 games to Smart go, Igowin, and Crazy Stone. If you play against Crazystone at its highest setting (it's like 6d now, isn't it?) I believe it will help. The computer truly comes up with some creative moves sometimes.

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Author:	xed_over [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
Koosh wrote: I had a very interesting conversation with a promotional guru at congress this year. His idea was that instead of bashing people for enjoying the game the way they like and criticizing peoples’ moves, we should let people play moves they like to play, study books they like to study, and generally enjoy the game. He argued that our circle would be much better off with three million 25 kyu players than with a handful of 7dan players. I wholeheartedly agree with him. Yes, Terry Benson has some very unique ideas, and is quite passionate about them. I too agree with him. I think its why I no longer play go. I'm not trying to improve. I don't want to review each and every move in painstaking detail after every game. I don't care if I don't win the tournament. I enjoy the game. It would be nice if I can eventually get better, but its no longer necessary for my enjoyment of the game. I like teaching beginners. I don't need to be pro or even dan level to do so. Sometimes, I just want to play, without having to put too much thought into the game.

Author:	yoyoma [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
xed_over wrote: Koosh wrote: I had a very interesting conversation with a promotional guru at congress this year. His idea was that instead of bashing people for enjoying the game the way they like and criticizing peoples’ moves, we should let people play moves they like to play, study books they like to study, and generally enjoy the game. He argued that our circle would be much better off with three million 25 kyu players than with a handful of 7dan players. I wholeheartedly agree with him. Yes, Terry Benson has some very unique ideas, and is quite passionate about them. I too agree with him. I think its why I no longer play go. I'm not trying to improve. I don't want to review each and every move in painstaking detail after every game. I don't care if I don't win the tournament. I enjoy the game. It would be nice if I can eventually get better, but its no longer necessary for my enjoyment of the game. I like teaching beginners. I don't need to be pro or even dan level to do so. Sometimes, I just want to play, without having to put too much thought into the game. I don't see where you said the reason you no longer play go?

Author:	Koosh [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
xed_over wrote: I think its why I no longer play go. I'm not trying to improve. I don't want to review each and every move in painstaking detail after every game. I don't care if I don't win the tournament. And the point of what he said was that you don't need to worry about these things. Just play, and just have fun. Your bound to run into people who are crazy obsessive about improving and enjoy showing their enthusiasm on this concept. I say that as a policy, instead of becoming preoccupied with the difference in attitude toward the game, we make it a priority to beat them down (as a proper opponent should!) so that they are motivated to continue down their path. It's a win-win situation.

Author:	Boidhre [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
Koosh wrote: Your bound to run into people who are crazy obsessive about improving and enjoy showing their enthusiasm on this concept. whistles innocently

Author:	Koosh [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
See what I mean? You've got to put these people in their place.

Author:	xed_over [ Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Oh, I'll play tommorrow. (No, you won't.)
yoyoma wrote: I don't see where you said the reason you no longer play go? it's the "what are you doing to improve?" mentality that I run into everywhere, and the over analyze every move that I get tired of. I much prefer the casual, social, "it's ok to take back a move and laugh out loud", or even no need to finish a game, type of play. doesn't matter who wins or loses. I don't think there are many like me, yet.