A few countries have dominated the game of go since its creation some 4 thousand years ago. Yet the country with the best players has changed a few times. What I am curious of is what caused these changes, as the countries switched positions not due to one or two players but the development of the game as a whole within that country.

The game of course originated in one of the ancient states of what is now China around 2000BC. So it is fair to say that the states of China were the most dominant in the game for a long time. The game was then eventually exported to Korea, Japan, and South East Asian Countries.

Japan became the dominant force in Go world with the formation of sponsored Go houses (1600s AD, please correct me if I am wrong).

Within the last few decades Korean Go players overtook the Japanese players (Years?). Chinese players have also overtaken the Japanese (Years?). What caused the slipping of the Japanese program and the rise of the Korean and Chinese programs?

Korea has dominated for several years now but the Chinese players are getting stronger and will eventually overtake the Korean players it seems like. This occurrence seems to have several factors, all of which I'd like to discuss here.

I am eager to hear everyone's opinion.

I don't really like the one country rules them all comparison. Of course chinese and korean players do better in international tournaments but both countries have a less big tournament scene compared to Japan, when you take the prize-money.
As far as I know, japanese Go has a completely different culture evolving around Go than e.g. Korea. You have matches that last long hours, in the past (maybe still, I don't know), you had title games which last several days. Koreans play - I don't know therefore exaggerated - 5*30 seconds in title games?

Why do japanse Go players always have to be weaker or less dominant? Why should they focus on international tournaments, when they can win more prize-money at home and probably even gain more popularity in their relevant market (Japan - maybe results in more private teaching etc.), when they win domestic tournaments.

Personally, I would only think about becoming a professional Go player in Japan (like this would ever happen ^^), because I have the feeling, Go is worth something in this country (respectively it is worth more than in other asian countries). And personally, too, I think Go is still stronger in Japan - traditionwise.

But then again, I miss the beauty of Dosaku's, later Shuei's and Go Seigen's games in nowadays Go, so I'm biased anyways =)

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My "guide" to become stronger in Go

Just in terms of manpower, the natural state of affairs is for china to have an order of magnitude more top-flight players than Japan and Korea combined. Presumably the Chinese catch-up time has to do with the rate at which they are able to increase the funding of their domestic go program.

There are many factors influencing the development of go playing in China and Korea. One important factor is the generosity of the Japanese in teaching Korean and Chinese players. The "father of Korean professional go", Cho Nam-ch'eol, went to Japan and was trained by Kitani Minoru before returning to Korea and founding professional go there. Cho Hun-Hyun was also trained in Japan. Japanese pros made teaching trips to China for a long time.

Political climate is also important. The Japanese invaded and took over Korea in the years before WWII and there are a lot of remaining feelings on both sides so the Koreans have a strong motivation to beat the Japanese. China was also very badly treated by the Japanese before and during WWII; the Japanese took over Manchuria and tried to take more of China. And there was the Nanking Massacre. On the other hand, the Japanese have nothing to prove. Japan ruled the "modern", as opposed to ancient, go world for two or three hundred years, bringing the game 90% of the way to what we know today. Go, as a valued cultural pursuit, is declining in Japan now. There are signs that, China and Korea having reached the top, a decline may set in in there, too.

I doubt chinese/korean professionals these days have addistional political motivations to beat players of certain countries other than national identity(?) perhaps (as encouraged in national team tournaments).

I have started to follow some of the top go, and I was surprised to see China sweeping some of the international tournaments, maybe their time has arrived.

Some of the recent weaknesses in Chinese Go may be due to the their political system's approach to recruiting talent, however they typically played with different rules so perhaps there were some inconsistencies in the counting systems. My personal opinion is that the Japanese weaknesses stem from their over reliance on the traditional handicap system for fuseki, where as China plays freely placed handicaps allowing for more complete joseki and fuseki development between the ranks, in other words Japanese and Japanese styled players only know 4,4 joseki. However Japanese players don't seem to make any of the top rankings or win any of the tournaments, I am not quite sure if the traditional handicap system can be that much of a weakness. For the comparison in size between the countries Korea's rankings is very impressive.

I live in China and the majority of people here do not play go. In the streets you see people play either Chinese Chess or cards, I haven't once seen go played out side in all my time in China. There are Go schools and within them hundreds of little Children, some of these are kids who go pro. For the older crowd there are a scattering of Go cafes but they are few and far in between. As a whole I don't think there are many people playing Go in China. Yet, for those that do the go program is very well funded it seems like.

I hear in Korea that Go is much more observable with lots of clubs and lots of players. As a result there are many very strong Korean players.

For Japan I've heard that it is an old man's game. Very few youths are interested in Go despite all its history in Japan.

I won't ask for references, as you stated that was your opinion, but believing "Japanese and Japanese styled players only know 4,4 joseki" based on how handicap stones are placed makes no sense.

It probably doesn't influence individual players to beat their rivals, but it may influence governments and advertisers.

Maybe this applies to part of those Western players suffering from Japanese rules. AFAIK, it does not apply to Japanese amateurs or professionals at all.

Well, one tradition has free handicaps and the other doesn't, and one tradition hasn't been doing all that well in international competition. Maybe there is some other reason. Any suggestions?

You can argue for anything with that logic. Any difference will do.

Funny thing about traditionalists, they tend to not to be able to reason logically when confronted with evidence contradicting their beliefs . For example one may believe that traditionally placed handicaps are superior to freely placed handicaps for training , however schools that subscribe to this tradition are losing , yet they believe there must be some other reason that they are not winning , maybe they are more creative or something.

Handicap go is almost completely irrelevant at the strong amateur and pro levels. Star point were rarely played as first moves in corners in professional Japanese go until the late 19th century. Look up the logical fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Most games you play as an insei are not handicapped.

AFAIK China doesn't use free handicap.

according to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_handicaps
korean rules have fixed handicap placement, so I think the theory is flawed.

I was watching some of the English Baduk TV broadcast where the commentator was also not happy about the decline of Japanese Go when they failed to win any games during the Nongshim cup. He wanted the Nongshim Cup at least to go back to where affiliation with the professional organization could determine who would play, so at least Cho U would be available to the Japanese side. I thought it was interesting just how much a Korean commentator really wanted to see Japan become more competitive.

Right now China to me looks the overall strongest with the most young talent. Koreans previously had a lot of wins, but it was mostly spread across three players (Cho Hunhyun, Lee Changho, and Lee Sedol). Korea has some good young talent now, and it will be interesting to see how China vs Korea goes for the next few years.

According to the link that speedchase posted the handicaps in China are free placement.



I will say that with popularity and money in Go in Korea that China is doing rather well internationally. We'll have to see if they are able to maintain the advantage in years to come. On a side note it is interesting, that in the link speedchase posted, what the advantages of free placement are. I find the corresponding argument that traditionally placed handicaps have more variation a little contrived.

I've posted this link before, but as it's relevant again you might like this colour-coded table I made which shows the rise of Korean (blue) and then Chinese (red) over the Japanese (green) in international tournaments:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.j.s ... Table.html

P.S. In the book Nie Weiping On Go there is a load of communist propaganda style biography, in which it is clear that the encouragement he received from politicians (until they fell out with Mao, cultural revolution etc.) to get stronger was fuelled by nationalistic pride.

P.P.S. "Japanese are weak because they have 4-4 handicaps" is such a laughable argument I won't even bother to refute it.