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| Out of stones http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6993 |
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| Author: | Alguien [ Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Out of stones |
This must be a silly question but, what happens in a real game if you spend all your stones? Do you pick some from the captured ones and note them somehow for later counting? |
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| Author: | quantumf [ Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
Most common technique is prisoner swaps - put 10 of my prisoners in your bowl and 10 of your prisoners in my bowl. Often stones run out because of lengthy ko battles, so both players have lots of prisoners. |
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| Author: | karaklis [ Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
Like in real life: exchange of prisoners |
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| Author: | Loons [ Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
Using area scoring, prisoners are irrelevant (you'll see many players just throwing prisoners back into bowls with NZ/Chinese rules, which is arguably annoying). |
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| Author: | clemi [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
Arguably annoying ? Just to know, what are the cons according to you ? |
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| Author: | Loons [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
Some people prefer to use Japanese style counting during the game, so you may want to count prisoners. |
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| Author: | Simba [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
Loons wrote: Some people prefer to use Japanese style counting during the game, so you may want to count prisoners. Also it's pretty off-putting; as someone who is very used to Japanese counting, it'd really break my concentration for my opponent to put prisoners back in their bowl as a sort of "wha, that's not meant to happen..." just instinctively  .
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
Just discretely reach into the bowl belonging to the player next to you.  ( Prior to doing this, you should ascertain that they are the proper color ) |
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| Author: | gowan [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
This isn't a totally trivial matter. Games more than 400 moves long are not out of the question and in such a game it might happen that even exchange of prisoners doesn't do the job. Also, if you are using Ing equipment, borrowing stones from another set might mess up the counting; at the least you'd have to give each player the same number of extra stones. |
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| Author: | jts [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
gowan wrote: This isn't a totally trivial matter. Games more than 400 moves long are not out of the question and in such a game it might happen that even exchange of prisoners doesn't do the job. Also, if you are using Ing equipment, borrowing stones from another set might mess up the counting; at the least you'd have to give each player the same number of extra stones. I'm not positive this is true. A full set should have 361 stones. At the point where one player runs out of stones completely (all 180 of his stones are on the board), all the remaining dame should be the result of captures. |
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| Author: | xed_over [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
jts wrote: gowan wrote: This isn't a totally trivial matter. Games more than 400 moves long are not out of the question and in such a game it might happen that even exchange of prisoners doesn't do the job. Also, if you are using Ing equipment, borrowing stones from another set might mess up the counting; at the least you'd have to give each player the same number of extra stones. I'm not positive this is true. A full set should have 361 stones. At the point where one player runs out of stones completely (all 180 of his stones are on the board), all the remaining dame should be the result of captures. today's new math is still hard for some people
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| Author: | speedchase [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
jts wrote: I'm not positive this is true. A full set should have 361 stones. At the point where one player runs out of stones completely (all 180 of his stones are on the board), all the remaining dame should be the result of captures. not true if there is a long ko. |
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| Author: | Sverre [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
speedchase wrote: not true if there is a long ko. A long ko where only one of the players is making captures? If both players capture stones then prisoner exchange is possible again. |
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| Author: | speedchase [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
Sverre wrote: A long ko where only one of the players is making captures? If both players capture stones then prisoner exchange is possible again. good point. what about a snap-back? |
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| Author: | oren [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
I think if you get to the point where prisoner exchange fails and you started with 181/180 stones, then someone should be resigning... At the go club, not all the bowls are completely full so borrowing from other bowls when you do run out is common enough. |
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| Author: | jts [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
speedchase wrote: Sverre wrote: A long ko where only one of the players is making captures? If both players capture stones then prisoner exchange is possible again. good point. what about a snap-back? What about it? |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
oren wrote: I think if you get to the point where prisoner exchange fails and you started with 181/180 stones, then someone should be resigning... One side could have lots of dead stones on the board, while the other could have lots of dead stones in the lid. |
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| Author: | oren [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
Joaz Banbeck wrote: One side could have lots of dead stones on the board, while the other could have lots of dead stones in the lid. Yes, but it would be very hard to construct with 181 black and 180 white stones in use. |
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| Author: | mrnoob [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
I've heard of this happening once in a professional tournament in Japan. One of the recorders had to run to get more stones from a different room; apparently, you can still lose by time, and both players were in byo yomi. This was like long before I was born though; I heard it from my teacher. At the club, we usually exchange prisoners, but it doesn't happen much. |
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| Author: | tundra [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Out of stones |
Well, in theory something bizarre like this seki is possible: Black: 2 stones White: 356 stones But getting back back to reality, I'd be curious to know if a real-life tournament using Ing rules has ever had a problem with the 180 stone supply. For other rulesets, I think the assumption, possibly unstated, is that each player has an unlimited number of stones. So finding extra stones is more of a practical problem, rather than a rules problem. |
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