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Temperature?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7337		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Kirby [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Temperature?
Recently there has been some discussion about temperature in go games. I've vaguely heard of the term before (http://senseis.xmp.net/?Temperature), and hearing about it reminds me of Berlekamp and Wolfe's book.

But I've never studied this topic of "temperature" much, as I figured it was mostly good for theoretical study and endgame in computer programs.

Seeing the discussion on the forum, though, it sounds like a lot of people understand temperature better than I do, which leads me to these questions:
* Is temperature practically useful when you're playing games?
* Do you consider temperature even during the fuseki?
* If temperature is practically useful in games, what makes it superior to other ways of playing?
* Any useful tips about temperature that will help me understand it better?
Author:  jts [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
Bill, how is that book coming along?
Author:  Phoenix [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
I think the term 'temperature' just refers to the urgency or size of plays in a certain area. That or how critical the next play is. An all-important ko, for example, would be like the core of the sun. :D

The only important aspect of 'temperature' is in your sense for the game. Weaker players attach much less importance to some plays because they don't understand how 'hot' a play is in relation to the whole game (think about thick, defensive plays for example). It's also related to how much pressure both players are under. Higher temperature = more pressure not to mess up.

I don't really like the term, myself. I talk about 'importance' rather than 'temperature'. 'Critical' is my favorite adjective when discussing the direction of play.
Author:  palapiku [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
Kirby wrote:
Seeing the discussion on the forum, though, it sounds like a lot of people understand temperature better than I do, which leads me to these questions:
* Is temperature practically useful when you're playing games?
* Do you consider temperature even during the fuseki?
* If temperature is practically useful in games, what makes it superior to other ways of playing?
* Any useful tips about temperature that will help me understand it better?


Whoa, this is way too complicated. Temperature is a very simple concept that you already understand very well (if you're SDK), you're just not calling it that. It's just the point difference (miai value, to be specific) between your play in an area and the opponent's play.

The temperature of the whole board is the value of the largest move. A board typically gets "colder" as a game progresses, but it becomes temporarily much hotter if the life of some group is at stake. Ko threats and absolute sente moves make the temperature really high, but the opponent's response usually cools the board back down. At the end of the game, the temperature finally falls to 0 and the board "crystallizes".

A hot board is more fun to watch :) Pro games often have ridiculously high temperature throughout the opening and the middle game, because they don't solidify things too much. For example, tenuki in the middle of a joseki leaves the local temperature very high.

One interesting implication is that if you are ahead, you want the board to be cold, so that the point swings don't eliminate your lead. If you are behind, you want the board to be hot, so that a single opportunity puts you back in the lead. This is related to saying that the player who is ahead wants to simplify things, and the player who is behind wants to complicate them. This is what I was referring to in the crosscut fuseki thread.

Edit: more examples to help convince you that you already know what temperature is: :)

A sente move leaves the temperature high.
A gote move leaves the temperature low.
If your opponent plays a sente move, but you ignore it and answer with a bigger sente elsewhere, the temperature is now high in two areas of the board.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
Kirby wrote:
* Is temperature practically useful when you're playing games?


Yes.

Note that there are different temperatures. One of them, the local temperature, is the "average value of a local move".

Temperature is (intended to be) a precise number concept, so one applies it only when one needs precise numbers. For a few example applications, see my joseki books. The most frequent application is during the endgame, of course: you play bigger gote before smaller gote etc.

Quote:
* Do you consider temperature even during the fuseki?


Yes, but rarely. E.g., the method Unsettled Group Average can be used during the opening, if necessary, e.g. if you want to decide whether to kill a small (e.g. joseki) group or better tenuki.

Quote:
* If temperature is practically useful in games, what makes it superior to other ways of playing?


It is not for other ways of playing, but offers other ways of assessment: precise ways.

Quote:
* Any useful tips about temperature that will help me understand it better?


Simply understand what local temperature is and how it is calculated!
Author:  hyperpape [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
palapiku wrote:
One interesting implication is that if you are ahead, you want the board to be cold, so that the point swings don't eliminate your lead. If you are behind, you want the board to be hot, so that a single opportunity puts you back in the lead. This is related to saying that the player who is ahead wants to simplify things, and the player who is behind wants to complicate them. This is what I was referring to in the crosscut fuseki thread.
Is this really true? What you want when you're ahead is to remove any complications. Complications are typically associated with high temperature, but you can also have simple moves that are very big (consider: there may be two very large miai points. This is fine for the player who is ahead, but the temperature may be high).
Author:  Mef [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
hyperpape wrote:
palapiku wrote:
One interesting implication is that if you are ahead, you want the board to be cold, so that the point swings don't eliminate your lead. If you are behind, you want the board to be hot, so that a single opportunity puts you back in the lead. This is related to saying that the player who is ahead wants to simplify things, and the player who is behind wants to complicate them. This is what I was referring to in the crosscut fuseki thread.
Is this really true? What you want when you're ahead is to remove any complications. Complications are typically associated with high temperature, but you can also have simple moves that are very big (consider: there may be two very large miai points. This is fine for the player who is ahead, but the temperature may be high).



If you have two large miai points your board temperature might be low. The temperature is going to be the difference between the two (because it's the benefit of playing first). Having one large point with no equivalent is a high temperature.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
jts wrote:
Bill, how is that book coming along?


On hold, as of last summer. :)
Author:  hyperpape [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
Mef wrote:
If you have two large miai points your board temperature might be low. The temperature is going to be the difference between the two (because it's the benefit of playing first). Having one large point with no equivalent is a high temperature.
You're right. I was thinking of local temperature, not global.
Author:  Magicwand [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
palapiku wrote:
A sente move leaves the temperature high.
A gote move leaves the temperature low.
If your opponent plays a sente move, but you ignore it and answer with a bigger sente elsewhere, the temperature is now high in two areas of the board.


It is logical sequence of question to ask how high or how low.
if it is a sente then you will multiply by 2
if is is a mutual sente then you will multiply by 4
if both gote and sente have same value then you will choose gote that has higher point difference.
Author:  SmoothOper [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
To my understanding temperature doesn't have anything to do with sente or gote, as much as positional judgement and territory.

Sente and gote represent urgency or tempo, but that is different from temperature. A large extension may have urgency if it is the largest point on the board and there is no miai. Kikashi, I would considered low temperature though sente in that they require urgent response.

Another way to think about is. While the temperature of the last ko fight might be half a point, if the game is close it has the same urgency as 50 point dragon with one eye earlier in the game.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
Magicwand wrote:
if is is a mutual sente then you will multiply by 4


Double sente values are not directly comparable to sente, reverse sente or gote values. Therefore a multiplication by 4 is a misleading suggestion.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
SmoothOper wrote:
While the temperature of the last ko fight might be half a point


In which sense could the last (ordinary basic) ko fight have a temperature of 0.5?! It is 1/3 or (area scoring) 2/3, exceptionally 4/3. 0.5 can only be the rounding of a 1/3 or 2/3 value, but not the temperature itself.
Author:  palapiku [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
SmoothOper wrote:
To my understanding temperature doesn't have anything to do with sente or gote, as much as positional judgement and territory.
. . .
Sente and gote represent urgency or tempo, but that is different from temperature.

Sente and gote are directly related to temperature. Whether a move is sente or gote affects the temperature after the move. Sente raises the temperature, gote lowers it.

From your example:
Quote:
A large extension may have urgency if it is the largest point on the board and there is no miai.

This is an example of a urgent gote move. After the move, the temperature is lower than before. There's a related concept of "last big point" - meaning that after it's played, the temperature of the board lowers dramatically.

Quote:
Kikashi, I would considered low temperature though sente in that they require urgent response.

The kikashi temporarily raises the temperature. The response (assuming it's gote) lowers it again.
Author:  SmoothOper [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
palapiku wrote:
SmoothOper wrote:
To my understanding temperature doesn't have anything to do with sente or gote, as much as positional judgement and territory.
. . .
Sente and gote represent urgency or tempo, but that is different from temperature.

Sente and gote are directly related to temperature. Whether a move is sente or gote affects the temperature after the move. Sente raises the temperature, gote lowers it.

From your example:
Quote:
A large extension may have urgency if it is the largest point on the board and there is no miai.

This is an example of a urgent gote move. After the move, the temperature is lower than before. There's a related concept of "last big point" - meaning that after it's played, the temperature of the board lowers dramatically.

Quote:
Kikashi, I would considered low temperature though sente in that they require urgent response.

The kikashi temporarily raises the temperature. The response (assuming it's gote) lowers it again.


The kikashi only cools the board, just like every other move, since the player removes that point from the available moves. Playing the kikashi removes available points from play. Essentially the big points will get played and the net some of the kikashi + big points is that there are fewer points on the board than playing the big points only.

Suppose there is a two point kikashi and five point play after which there are only one point plays. The two point kikashi serves to cool the board just like any other play, however it is urgent.
Author:  Mef [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
SmoothOper wrote:
The kikashi only cools the board, just like every other move, since the player removes that point from the available moves. Playing the kikashi removes available points from play. Essentially the big points will get played and the net some of the kikashi + big points is that there are fewer points on the board than playing the big points only.

Suppose there is a two point kikashi and five point play after which there are only one point plays. The two point kikashi serves to cool the board just like any other play, however it is urgent.


If it is a two point kikashi, then prior to your move, the temperature will be 2 points (difference in your play vs. their play). After you play your move but before your opponent responds, the temperature is now going to be the difference between responding to the kikashi (returning to status quo) and letting you follow up on the kikashi (presumably worth much more than two points, if your move truly merits a response). The result is that the temperature on the board is now much higher, and after your opponent responds it cools off.
Author:  tapir [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
Most of the time temperature is just a metaphor for urgency (hot, cold, cooling, heating up, in this thread: crystallize) and it is more mystifying than helpful to read much into it. If you count, talking about miai value/size of play works fine without metaphors.
Author:  SmoothOper [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
Mef wrote:
SmoothOper wrote:
The kikashi only cools the board, just like every other move, since the player removes that point from the available moves. Playing the kikashi removes available points from play. Essentially the big points will get played and the net some of the kikashi + big points is that there are fewer points on the board than playing the big points only.

Suppose there is a two point kikashi and five point play after which there are only one point plays. The two point kikashi serves to cool the board just like any other play, however it is urgent.



Game temperature always cools and ambient temperature remains the same:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?GameTemperature

Average value of gote play.

http://senseis.xmp.net/?TemperatureCGT

The bottom line is before and after kikashi, the largest point on the board would still be five points. I think many beginners don't quite understand this, and play inside frame works just to get a response, but who am I to correct that behavior.
Author:  tapir [ Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
SmoothOper wrote:
Game temperature always cools and ambient temperature remains the same:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?GameTemperature


Bill Spight via SL wrote:
"It is often useful to think of a game temperature that never rises during the game. Even if a hot battle erupts, as a rule it heats up a local region, while the ambient temperature remains the same."


You are aware that game temperature in the first sentence is synonymous to ambient temperature in the second. Imho this is a good example of the mystifying nature of these concepts when taken too serious. There was a perfectly clear summary above, but some posts later suddenly concepts are multiplying and everyone is confused.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Temperature?
tapir wrote:
SmoothOper wrote:
Game temperature always cools and ambient temperature remains the same:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?GameTemperature


Bill Spight via SL wrote:
"It is often useful to think of a game temperature that never rises during the game. Even if a hot battle erupts, as a rule it heats up a local region, while the ambient temperature remains the same."


You are aware that game temperature in the first sentence is synonymous to ambient temperature in the second. Imho this is a good example of the mystifying nature of these concepts when taken too serious. There was a perfectly clear summary above, but some posts later suddenly concepts are multiplying and everyone is confused.


A quick history of temperature in go:

Temperature started as a technical term in combinatorial game theory. It applies to games, which in go are independent regions of play (or the whole board). It corresponds to miai value in go, even though miai value applies to plays. A gote or reverse sente in a region gains on average at most the temperature of the region.

In the 1990s temperature started to be used by amateur go players on reg.games.go in reference to the whole board (whole board temperature) or to the rest of the board aside from the region of play under consideration (ambient temperature). In those terms you can say that a play is likely to be played with sente (at least for one play) if it leaves the local temperature higher than the ambient temperature.

Later yours truly used the idea of the temperature of the environment to define the temperature of combinatorial games. This enables us to evaluate positions with multiple kos or superkos.

Now, since temperature in go is a regular word, like a regular word it is not surprising that it is somewhat ambiguous. The same thing is true for many go terms that have a long history, such as sente and gote.

As for the idea of a game temperature that never rises, Berlekamp showed that if you start play in a game at a certain temperature and the temperature goes up, it is in some cases possible to err by making the play with the highest miai value. You can avoid such errors by keeping in mind the starting temperature. Similarly, if a local region heats up, the ambient temperature does not change (except perhaps in regard to ko, but kos break independence). It is generally good to think about sequences that raise the temperature as temporary and local.
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