Yesterday I got a review request via GTL (go teaching ladder). The webpage, the request and by default the review would be in English. Yet, I believe both the reviewee and the reviewer are German. When you think about it much of English language activity (my guess sth. between 10-20%) online is by native German speakers who somehow end up writing in English instead. Personally, I became a librarian in mainly English language Sensei's Library before I visited my first tournament.

So why do German speaking (German, Austrian, Swiss) go players write in English instead of German?

Why insist on contributing in English where each of your sentences needs a grammar check instead of producing German language content?

Why introduce another layer of (mis-)translation by reliance on English literature and terminology that doesn't work out the same in German? (E.g. you can easily tell the people who learned from the internet because they talk of "leiter" (ladder) instead "treppe" (staircase) as people who learned over the board do.)

It's the internet. Unless the majority agrees to write in a language most can understand, a lot of information has to be translated again or posted again by a different person, which doubles the effort to spread knowledge.

But in general I share your point. I think one of the main obstacles (especially for younger german players) is not having first hand german texts or direct translations from japanese, chinese or korean, but instead some (in my opinion) weird English translations (like you said: "Leiter").

The problem is that there is almost nothing which would justify the work involved. Go-books in german are bound to sell worse than the english ones and from all I hear, their sales are already bad.

A further problem is re-branding all the terms. You have to forget about all the generations of Go-players, who learnt "Leiter", or "hohe drei Punkte Zange" or other weird terms. It will be questionable that your chosen terms will stick.
Then there is the problem that even in English a lot of Go terms are mistranslated as John Fairbairn often points out.

You really have to start at zero to make this work. You need a lot of time, you need knowledge in asian culture and languages, you need to know how to make a Go book with diagrammes and you need to know how to write one.

I wanted to write a small german compendium for my Go-club but I was so accustomed to use english terms and I did know all the weird german translations that I couldn't come up with something sensible.
On top of that, I still haven't figured out how to write a compendium, which addresses all the exceptions in Go (meaning not teaching stupid proverbs).

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My "guide" to become stronger in Go

In this forum, we write in English, e.g., because it is an English forum.

Concerning books, there are a few German translated books. Why are there not more? The market is (probably) too small to justify the time investment. Maybe later I test the German market, but currently I do not have the time resources for doing so. (There is also a legal problem for Germans to publish in German mainly for the German market: it is prohibited or at least too unclear whether electronic versions of a printed book may have a reduced / different price. Not to mention a possible relation to the English electronic version.)

For me, knowing the relevant German terms would not be a problem (OC "Treppe"!), but one can be faced with the decision of whether to use the German word or a foreign language word, when both are common among Germans (e.g., Vorhand and Sente are about equally popular in German). BTW, also go terms in English sometimes have this duality: play(ing) elsewhere and tenuki are both possible.

Well, I never noticed the same for e.g. Russian, French or Turkish speakers - in all three languages over the board activity (if EGD is any indication) is growing steadily or rapidly, but you don't have a large number of players from those countries involved in English language online activity. I assume (France, Russia) or know (Turkey) that most discussion there is done in the respective language. It is German language in particular where a large number of native speakers seem to prefer English over German online and I increasingly wonder whether we don't do a disservice to Go in Austria, Switzerland and Germany in doing so.

The DGoB forum is not particularly inactive or unpopular, is it?

As for GTL I guess that the reviewed games are beneficial not only for the reviewee, but for other players as well. And most of the other players don't understand German.

Apart from that I agree with SoDesuNe. I learned go completely in English, and also my go literature is in English (except for one book which is in German because there is no English equivalent). When I showed up at a go game evening, I didn't understand what the players were talking about (what the heck means "Vorhand"? It took me some time to figure out that it means "sente"). I still feel uncomfortable talking about go in German, even though it's my mother tongue. So for me as a native German speaker there is no need to review a game and/or talk about go in German. But for other Germans it may be different of course.

Aside from the fact that I frequent a LOT of other forums and read a LOT of mailing lists, mostly with some hard-/software focus, and most of these are international = English …
Mind you, in German forums (e.g. the German DGoB forum) and mailing lists I write in German

Else, I have several reasons:

• I joined the international = English internet before I joined the German net.

• This forum is international = English.

• I began speaking English at age of four, reading and writing at age of five, so English is almost my second native language, and ever since I’ve been reading and writing English almost daily, and while my English is far from perfect, I love the language (and I love language in general), and it feels natural to me to use it—I don’t have to translate it internally: I think in English when I read/write/speak English. Sadly, I don’t have not as many opportunities to speak English, so my spoken English is somewhat rusty.

I decided that this part is not addressed to me b/c it’s probably (hopefully ) only every other of my sentences that needs a grammar check, and I also produce German language content elsewhere.

Good question, I think.

But for me, a more appropriate question would be: “Why do you read/write on L19 instead of a German language (i.e. German/Austrian/Swiss) forum?”

My answer to this: Well, I do read the German DGoB forum but I write little there resp. probably just locally interesting stuff (like that thread there about “my” regular Go Workshop at our local school).

And why I’m on L19, too: There are many more Go players here than on the DGoB forum, therefore this forum is much livelier than the DGoB forum. There may be also other reasons for this forum’s liveliness, like Malkovitch and the integration of playable diagrams, etc., but mostly I believe it’s just the sheer number of participants, leading to a greater number of good posts and comments.


Greetings, Tom

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“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?

Well, it is not necessarily about this forum, what triggered my post was GTL.

Why do I even consider writing an English review for someone fluent in German? Why bother to please by-standers when it makes it harder both for reviewer and reviewee?

Why do I write a somewhat reasonable article on SL (rarely, but it did happen) or here but not once in the DGoZ? (The DGoZ has in fact more readers than the average thread here or the average new article on SL.)

Why do I feel good about my somewhat decent command of English as compared to the average native speaker of German instead of worrying about how to spread the gospel to them? (In Germany, the majority admits to having no or "not good" knowledge of English in surveys, the situation in Switzerland and Austria is probably similar.)

If all the people with CJK language knowledge would not have bothered to translate into English because they can read a better, richer literature in original there wouldn't be an English terminology to talk about Go now. If we use English for discussion and German only for local issues we make sure that German terminology doesn't benefit from our endeavours. It would also affect the social composition of go players, especially regarding social class, formal education and age.

Well, there are several interesting issues raised here, but I am an American, so I think all of "you people" should just learn to speak English.

More seriously, I think it depends on your approach to the game. If you are Robert, and your goal is to develop the greatest understanding of a theoretical aspect of the game possible, you need to work in English, because of the quantity of feedback you'll get. You will probably be even better served by engaging with the Asian literature, but if you already speak some English and no Japanese, Chinese or Korean, that may make it a reasonable stopping point.

If you want to enjoy go and build it in your neighborhood, you should work in German.

Your work, as an SL librarian is somewhere in the middle, I think, and there are arguments in favor of each language. Should you revert to writing in German? *shrug*

Under no circumstance other than ignorance would a native German speaker reviewing a native German speaker's game on the GTL make sense.

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Occupy Babel!

What you say is true, but there might be many reasons for that.

Each ethnicity you speak of probably has its own native-language forum, if they need one. So the question is not so much 'why do they not discuss things in their native language?' but rather 'why do they ALSO bother to participate in english-language discussions?' I think it is a matter of trafic and/or subject.

The english-language forum is not really 'english-speaking-people' forum in the same sense as german-language forums is for german-speaking people only. English language is de-facto an international common ground around most the world, and so english-language forum is a de-facto an international forum. I like to think that you are not really 'cheating on your country' by posting on L19... you are REPRESENTING your country. Its the glass half full analogy.

Still - there are pretty lively forums being run in other languages. So there is really no 'disservice' to your country when you post here. Rather - there s service to the whole world (and, by definition, also to your country) when you do. Again - glass half full.

PS>
One reason for the german-speakers in particular being so prolific on english-language forums is that Germans/Swiss/Austrians are, on average, rather comfortable with english. Comparing to a lot of the rest of the non-english speaking world.

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Did you post this question on the DGoZ at the same time that you posted it here? If not, you have answered your own question. Fortunately for us (though perhaps unfortunately for your countrymen) you apparently feel that your relationship with the global (English-using) Go community is stronger, more immediate, etc. than you ties to the German-using DGoZ community. Thank you for all you have contributed to enrich our shared hobby!

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

If Japanese, Korean and Chinese go players had decided for whatever reason to write all their forums, wikis game reviews etc in English, a lot more people would have huge sources of information to learn about the game.

I'm Spanish and could write in four languages. I chose English, even though it's the only one I had to study, because I think that having one or two primary languages in the Internet is a fantastic achievement for the humanity.

The availability of the information is much more important than it's precision and I truly hope one day every human being will be able to speak a single language. Even if that requires corrupting and perverting it until it becomes barely recognizable. I really believe that that day will be one of the major milestones in the history of civilization.


So, yes, you could use German when chatting with a German person in kgs, but you should feel bad for hurting humanity and being partly responsible for the perpetuation of war, hunger and other such horsemen.

For me it's actually easier to communicate go-related things in English. I learned from the internet, I play online and almost all my go literature is written in English. So English is my go language, if you will. Talking about go in German feels weird to me. Also I like taking every opportunity to speak other languages, so for me it's all quite natural.

Ich wunder mich warum ich habe deutsch gelernt. Manchmals es scheint deutsche Leute auch nur englisch sprechen.

Ich wunsche ihn aller ein froehliche Weihnachten!

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Learn the "tea-stealing" tesuji! Cho Chikun demonstrates here:

I surfed over to DGoB forum, and the first thread I found was about whether a list of books is better organized when it's alphabetized by author, or by title. (I also learned a new word - übersichtlich! At first I thought it was a joke, but apparently not.) I think I understand why tapir digs L19.

In every era the international community has its lingua franca. (Or occasionally, its lingua latina, its hellenike glossa, its putonghua... ) And that community is somewhat restricted by access to things like literacy, fluency, paper, laptops, free time, and so on. But, on the plus side, world peace and international understanding?

You have a different view of the phenomenon when you grew up somewhere where the dominant language was changing. When I grew up, the year senior to me had to learn Russian, my year was given the choice and the year junior to me already had to learn English and our English teachers were often just a bit ahead of us in language acquisition. And world peace and understanding by having a dominant language, how did this work out the last three thousand years?

Seriously, I am not nationalist enough to care about representing my country internationally (or sporting made-up national costumes in pair go events). I am concerned with the German language as opposed to Germany, and this equally matters in Austria and Switzerland, where I currently live. I do know why I contribute in English instead of German, English features the most prolific Go literature available to me, learning in English I naturally ended up contributing in English and I believe the situation is essentially the same for all English contributing native German speakers online.

Obviously there are many problems in the available material in English as well, but when I read this discussion, I don't pity the native English speakers but start to wonder whether as native German speaker learning from English literature I don't have a much bigger problem. If I talk about a pincer instead of saying hasami, even if I know what pincer means "pincer" is mainly an abstract go term for me and the go term is what helps me remembering the common word. Or for a more drastic example: When I came across "funny business" (for aji) the first time this was literally as incomprehensible to me as any japanese phrase would be. It might be the best rendering in English (from what I read about both the Japanese term and the English expression and one of my teachers endorses it, so I do too), but it is literally worthless in German. The expression doesn't work the same way in German and if you use "aji" everyone keeps misunderstanding it in his own way.

Now take the term "Mausefalle" in German (for snapback) it is supported by the whole language, I instantly have the mental image of bait, mice and the painful capture - you can even apply a common proverb: "Mit Speck fängt man Mäuse." If someone misses the snapback, you tease him with the proverb and this will help him remember. It doesn't work the same in other languages, but it doesn't have to. With English terms, however, I have trouble to understand them as soon as they get more "sensual" - if English is to be the language of an international Go community the terms will be bland and dry and the terminology in other languages will be undeveloped. Well, this is bad even for the English terminology, but in German you end up with silly third-hand translations like "Zange" or "Klemmzug" (for pincer) which carry the mental image of touching (and forcefully so) while the move you talk about does the exact opposite - it limits the room for extension but doesn't even try to "hold" the pincered stone and usually avoids to touch it. /Ok, I should stop for today./

P.S.
Please jts read "Index to useful posts for beginners" or "Malkovich Registration Thread" before you ridicule the DGoB forum, all relevant content of the mentioned thread is in the first post, it is an index of book reviews. The problem is that a forum keeps transient, long obsolete comments by default (try removing an old post from L19) regardless of language or culture. The problem that transient comments are kept for eternity is an unsolved problem everywhere in the internet, be it usenet, forum, wiki.

My observation about English speakers is that they tend to open minded, but not willing to actually learn different languages. Many English speakers also don't realize that English is a synthetic language, so a particular word ordering will sound incorrect, but is actually correct syntax, but happens to be a convenient word order for non-native speakers native language(IE subject direct object verb can also correct in English, as well as the Mandarin subject when where how verb direct object). Many English speakers also don't realize that there are native speakers, such as Indian, that have a vastly different approach to the language. The real rub is that many times English as a second language don't understand other English as a second language with different native languages.

In the spirit of the holidays, I apologize. Alle Gospieler werden Brüder, alle Buchrezensionen werden übersichtlichen!

Because mentally translating from English to German is inconvenient. Thinking about certain topics (programming, go,...) in English is easier for me than thinking about them in German.

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Sanity is for the weak.

@jts: Ehrlich gesagt, hätte ich auch gerne ein paar Schwestern

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“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?