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| Ways to be un predictable. http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7641 |
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| Author: | SmoothOper [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Ways to be un predictable. |
Are there any good methods for being unpredictable when playing? Maybe leaving joseki unfinished, scripting plays(eg tenuki every third stone), feigned defenses, try to spell your name on the board... It seems like with discipline and complimentary tactics these could be pulled off and be really difficult to read. |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
I think this is relevant: http://youtu.be/G7MPWA1tpfM?t=9m26s Sure, it's easy to be unpredictable. When facing an opponent of equal or greater strength than you, just sometimes intentionally play a really idiotic move. However, all that will accomplish is making you look like an idiot. Your opponent doesn't have to read every stupid move you're capable of playing. They only have to read out your possible good responses. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
Well, if unpredictability is indeed "good", playing bafflingly bad moves is certainly one way to go about it. However, there seems to be an underlying assumption that your opponents will have difficulty handling unexpected good fortune (in the shape of bad plays) when it falls into their laps. This may only work consistently with opponents below a certain strength. 
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| Author: | SmoothOper [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
Dusk Eagle wrote: I think this is relevant: http://youtu.be/G7MPWA1tpfM?t=9m26s Sure, it's easy to be unpredictable. When facing an opponent of equal or greater strength than you, just sometimes intentionally play a really idiotic move. However, all that will accomplish is making you look like an idiot. Your opponent doesn't have to read every stupid move you're capable of playing. They only have to read out your possible good responses. So if it isn't readable, it must be stupid... I like the way u r thinking. |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
Thank you 
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| Author: | SmoothOper [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
Dusk Eagle wrote: Thank you -Admin- The link which was posted is not about go and is way off topic and has been deleted. |
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| Author: | Phoenix [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
I don't mean to sound critical, but it sounds like you're falling into the wouldn't it be nice mentality. Being unpredictable falls far behind most aspects of Go in terms of usefulness. If you cannot win against someone by conventional means, then you are weaker than them. Besides, there are so many options to choose from in a game that as long as you back a move up with sound reasoning and solid reading, you will never run out of opportunities to play creatively and unpredictably. However, I'd also like to point out that when a pro (or high ranked amateur) gets attacked, he's strong enough to know ahead of time that the attack is coming. But his opponent builds up his advantage prior to the attack with sequences which give him sente and in which other branches end up in a net loss for his opponent. Unpredictability is important and pros constantly surprise each other. But Go strength doesn't lie in unpredictability. What I'm saying, in short, is that when a strong player takes a loss, it is rarely because he was tricked into it. If Go were about deception, there would be a much lesser need for discipline. Now, bearing all this in mind, if I had to give advice on how to be unpredictable it's this, and you won't like it: read more. Not in the sense of reading further than your opponent (though that would be nice...), but reading out from more possibilities when you play. That means taking the time to actually read out the regular (read 'boring') options. Play them out if they help. If they don't or if it's not enough (say you're behind 15 points and you can gain 5 at most with regular options), then consider other starting points and read them out. The reason Dusk Eagle is responding to you this way, I think, is because at our level most 'unpredictable' moves are backed up with nothing more than intuition and a little hope. To sculpt a coherent strategy around such a move is what's required to make them viable, and they must be backed with adequate research and work. All the greats have done it consistently, but then again the greats know a great deal about Go, and are strong enough to see their move to the end, even before they have played it. |
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| Author: | tchan001 [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
Play 1-1 as your opening move and you'll keep your opponent guessing. I have also heard that when really strong players want to have fun in a game, they can start the game by just flicking a stone onto the board and continue from that. Certainly unpredictable. |
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| Author: | oren [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
I was reading in Go World once where one player played a not so great move and his opponent ended up using most of his main time trying to figure it out. The move was bad, but in the end it did accomplish a lot. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
Dusk Eagle wrote: I think this is relevant: http://youtu.be/G7MPWA1tpfM?t=9m26s Sure, it's easy to be unpredictable. When facing an opponent of equal or greater strength than you, just sometimes intentionally play a really idiotic move. However, all that will accomplish is making you look like an idiot. Your opponent doesn't have to read every stupid move you're capable of playing. They only have to read out your possible good responses. I LOVED the video! 
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| Author: | Phelan [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
Phoenix's post is great advice! What I suggest if you want to try "unpredictable", is to try unconventional opening lines. Some opponents are too used to conventional fuseki and sometimes don't react the best way they should, so you can get an advantage. However, Go is not a hidden information game. Every move will be on the board for your opponent to analyse and read, and if he does so, he'll likely get the better of you(assuming equal levels). So, you're likely handling the subject in the wrong way. Don't take this as antagonism, it's just the majority of the forum dwellers trying to change your attitude to the right mindset, where you can progress much faster. |
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| Author: | tapir [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
I believe (at your level) an aim like "play at least 20 tenuki" per game can be highly beneficial as a learning exercise. In my experience below 5k the player who plays more tenuki always wins. More often than not (at your level) the tenuki will be both surprising to the opponent and a better move than the expected local continuation. |
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| Author: | SmoothOper [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
Phelan wrote: Phoenix's post is great advice! What I suggest if you want to try "unpredictable", is to try unconventional opening lines. Some opponents are too used to conventional fuseki and sometimes don't react the best way they should, so you can get an advantage. However, Go is not a hidden information game. Every move will be on the board for your opponent to analyse and read, and if he does so, he'll likely get the better of you(assuming equal levels). So, you're likely handling the subject in the wrong way. Don't take this as antagonism, it's just the majority of the forum dwellers trying to change your attitude to the right mindset, where you can progress much faster. I think I should have mentioned it in the previous post, but I am not necessarily interested in developing my own "novel" plays, which I discussed in another thread, but ways to approach conventional play unpredictably. It is an interesting implication, that a player who is indeed superior at reading would be perceived as unpredictable by a weaker reader, though all unpredictable play might not necessarily be superior. |
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| Author: | SmoothOper [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
hmm... myoushoo http://senseis.xmp.net/?MyoShu |
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| Author: | Phoenix [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
SmoothOper wrote: Not to dash your hopes, but I think if we put all L19's wits and strength and ideas combined, we could not find a myoushoo. We don't exactly have a Sakata in our ranks. 
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| Author: | speedchase [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
Strong players predict all the good moves. If you aren't playing one of those, your move must be worse. |
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| Author: | Twitchy Go [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
speedchase wrote: Strong players predict all the good moves. If you aren't playing one of those, your move must be worse. This is false. http://senseis.xmp.net/?EarReddeningGame as an example, I don't think Gennan Inseki saw that move, and 8d is not weak. |
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| Author: | SmoothOper [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
Twitchy Go wrote: speedchase wrote: Strong players predict all the good moves. If you aren't playing one of those, your move must be worse. This is false. http://senseis.xmp.net/?EarReddeningGame as an example, I don't think Gennan Inseki saw that move, and 8d is not weak. What exactly is a "surprise strategic" move? It isn't like there are secrets or anything. |
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| Author: | speedchase [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
Twitchy Go wrote: This is false. http://senseis.xmp.net/?EarReddeningGame as an example, I don't think Gennan Inseki saw that move, and 8d is not weak. I was talking about what usually happens. Shusaku didn't play that move because he was trying to be unpredictable, he played it because he was trying to play the best move he could. I was talking about a strategy of being unpredictable. Corner cases aren't relevant |
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| Author: | SmoothOper [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ways to be un predictable. |
speedchase wrote: Twitchy Go wrote: This is false. http://senseis.xmp.net/?EarReddeningGame as an example, I don't think Gennan Inseki saw that move, and 8d is not weak. I was talking about what usually happens. Shusaku didn't play that move because he was trying to be unpredictable, he played it because he was trying to play the best move he could. I was talking about a strategy of being unpredictable. Corner cases aren't relevant From this example and as a consequence of your statement, as a corollary, I could conclude that a strategy that depends on predicting an opponents move is also not relevant, but I don't think this is what you meant either. |
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