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 Post subject: Re: Learning by Children and Adults
Post #21 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:29 am 
Oza

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Bill Spight wrote:
daal wrote:
Some evidence for children learning by principle can be seen when they apply principles incorrectly, for example when they use regular forms for irregular verbs or irregular plurals that they don't know, such as: "I drawed you a picture" or "Tomorrow is the twenty tooth." Some kids will develop their own principles and extrapolate from them for example by calling all fuzzy things cats or assuming all men with white beards are Santa Claus.


Children go through three stages in learning the past tense of English irregular verbs. First, they learn the irregular forms. Then they apply the general rule, as in drawed, goed, eated. Then they go back to the irregular forms.

I'm not sure if I would call a general rule a principle, and I certainly would not call generalization the application of principles. For principles I would like abstraction, which most kids do not develop before age 8 or so.

A possibly embarrassing example of generalization is calling every man with glasses and a beard Daddy. ;) Don't laugh. I've had two children that I just met call me daddy. One of the mothers told me, "She calls every man with glasses and a beard Daddy." ;)


This learning process seems quite applicable to learning go as well. I think that adult learners are much more likely to jump in at step 2 (apply a proverb everywhere) and stick there without looking at other options as much, because they were pointed to these principles too early, as opposed to developing them through repetition. This can bootstrap you into some semblance of decency more quickly, but perhaps makes it harder to step beyond the interface of proverbs to see the game as it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning by Children and Adults
Post #22 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:32 am 
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Boidhre wrote:
In bilingual kids it can be amusing. There's a verb in Irish déan, its meaning includes make and do but also encompasses some senses of perform, execute, manufacture, commit (in the sense of a crime) and so on. So it's a verb you use a lot, it gets even worse when combined into phrases e.g. ag déanamh uisce (doing water or making water literally) which means bilging. So translating it straight across to do/make/commit/whatever in English is risky.

So my three year old at the moment: "Will I do that for you Siún?" "Yeah you can make it Dada." "There you go, I did it for you." "Yeah you made it for me Dada."

She's not gotten old enough yet to not make this error. She hears do, translates it in her head as déan, and answers back with the most common English word she associates with déan which is make. My six year old son on the other hand never makes mistakes of this kind, the kind of thing he does is if he doesn't know a word in one language but he does in the other language he'll take the word from language B treat it as a word from language A and apply the associated grammatical rules to it and put it in a sentence in language A. So he could take an Irish word like marú (to kill), put it in the English past tense by forming marúed and put it in a sentence like "He was marúed." They don't tend to confuse the grammatical rules of the language, I've never seen him speaking in English and using Irish grammar, it's only with borrowed words that it gets a bit confused.


IMX, an example from a Japanese-English bilingual kid was, "Nani wo doing?" for "What are you doing?" All of the adults, including yours truly, adopted it. "Nani wo doing?", "Nani wo toking about?" (Dropping the "l" in "talking"), etc. ;)

Edit: For those unfamiliar with Japanese, nani is what, and wo indicates that it is the direct object. The are you is understood.

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Last edited by Bill Spight on Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning by Children and Adults
Post #23 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:36 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
hyperpape, my ability to learn from principles was about as great as a 4 years old child as it was later and is today. (I do not recall well the degree of my ability to learn from examples at the age of 4.)


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 073735.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Learning by Children and Adults
Post #24 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:38 am 
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skydyr wrote:
This learning process seems quite applicable to learning go as well. I think that adult learners are much more likely to jump in at step 2 (apply a proverb everywhere) and stick there without looking at other options as much, because they were pointed to these principles too early, as opposed to developing them through repetition. This can bootstrap you into some semblance of decency more quickly, but perhaps makes it harder to step beyond the interface of proverbs to see the game as it is.


O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us,
To see the board as Gu Li sees it.
It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion

:mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Learning by Children and Adults
Post #25 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:40 am 
Judan

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Herman, that article refers to "normal" men. It is right that memory about childhood can be difficult; therefore, I refer only to things I can remember.

A very few prodigies are reported to speak a few foreign languages fluently at the age of 2... I wonder how, because my self-reflecting consciousness (and basic arithmetics with natural numbers to 100) started at 4. I can still recall the age and exact place, because the first moment of self-reflecting consciousness was associated with great astonishment. Other achievements of understanding long time ago I can recall well because of related great importance or joy.

Does the article take into account such factors?

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 Post subject: Re: Learning by Children and Adults
Post #26 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:08 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Herman, that article refers to "normal" men. It is right that memory about childhood can be difficult; therefore, I refer only to things I can remember.

A very few prodigies are reported to speak a few foreign languages fluently at the age of 2... I wonder how, because my self-reflecting consciousness (and basic arithmetics with natural numbers to 100) started at 4. I can still recall the age and exact place, because the first moment of self-reflecting consciousness was associated with great astonishment. Other achievements of understanding long time ago I can recall well because of related great importance or joy.

Does the article take into account such factors?


The article does not so much say that memory of young age is difficult, but that it is unreliable. The subjects in the research all claim to have certain memories, but it turns out that many of those memories are inaccurate. It also mentions that emotional significance of the memory did not increase its accuracy. The unreliability of memory is also a phenomenon in the short term, by the way. Eye-witness testimony in court is notoriously unreliable, for example.

So without independent outside corroboration, there is every reason to assume that your memories are just as likely to be inaccurate as those of the test group in this experiment.

If you or others want to make claims regarding learning ability in children vs adults, I would prefer references to scientific studies, rather than personal anecdotal evidence with dubious accuracy.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning by Children and Adults
Post #27 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:33 am 
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Indeed, language learning is precisely not a case of learning by general principles. The child sees examples and distills principles, some of which are correct, and some of which are incorrect. And it is virtually impossible to correct children's linguistic behavior via language.

As for set theory, I'll get back to it later.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning by Children and Adults
Post #28 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:02 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
Indeed, language learning is precisely not a case of learning by general principles. The child sees examples and distills principles, some of which are correct, and some of which are incorrect. And it is virtually impossible to correct children's linguistic behavior via language.

As for set theory, I'll get back to it later.

Perhaps we should avoid brewing metaphors. The child sees examples and... reproduces patterns?

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 Post subject: Re: Learning by Children and Adults
Post #29 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:46 pm 
Judan

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Herman, empirical scientific articles are good for making statements about averages or distributions. Personal anecdotes (those that are reliable because and if the person's memory about a particular anecdote is very clear) are good as counter-examples for too general statements of the kind "all children...".

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 Post subject: Re: Learning by Children and Adults
Post #30 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:00 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Herman, empirical scientific articles are good for making statements about averages or distributions. Personal anecdotes (those that are reliable because and if the person's memory about a particular anecdote is very clear) are good as counter-examples for too general statements of the kind "all children...".


No matter how "clear" you consider your memory, research shows that it is unreliable. Your memory could be correct. It could be false. We don't know. Since we cannot know if it is correct, it proves nothing and has no value as a counter-example.

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Post #31 Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:52 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
...
A possibly embarrassing example of generalization is calling every man with glasses and a beard Daddy. ;) Don't laugh. I've had two children that I just met call me daddy. One of the mothers told me, "She calls every man with glasses and a beard Daddy." ;)


Please show us pictures of your beard.

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Post #32 Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:13 am 
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Herman, there is indeed no direct evidence of a person's memory, but, for third persons, it can be evaluated only indirectly by witnesses, tests or circumstantial evidence. However, even the best circumstantial evidence (such as non-stop 1 marks in school maths) cannot tell, e.g., just HOW bored I was in maths at school (e.g., learning from principles within 1 or 2 hours the contents of 1 or 2 years of lessons). I am afraid, you would need to believe such anecdotes. Restrospect scientific tests would not provide evidence for them. Witnesses are not available (there is no witness for having read a school book privately and quickly). Science would need to observe directly, i.e., while the child is learning, and then soon measure its understanding.

I have not heard of such direct scientific observations of prodigies during their learning. Have you? There are, however, lots of anecdotes on scientists (see, e.g., the excellent (yes!) book Great Physicists, Cropper) or artists, which rely on notes or witnesses, but might, from an outside view, as well be rumours. E.g., is there actual evidence that Mozart did compose at the age of 4? We were told this anecdote at school more than once, but is it true?

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