Too sad! No colleagues come to my introduction of GO. Why does an engineering company have no people with willing to go deep in mind? I want to look for a job in other companies…

Is it better to go to an US company or German company?

A lot of people are just uninterested. It's too bad you couldn't find anyone in your workplace.

I don't know what it is. I try to get people into the idea and feeling of the game. I tell them how it's a very creative game, simple to learn, keeps you mind sharper than any other game (it seems to prevent degenerative diseases typically associated with old age), etc. It's hard to even get any reaction at all, much less someone willing to play a game.

Why do people resist the idea of having fun in a new way so much? That's the mystery.

I don't just pile this stuff on them. I'm good at presenting, I talk to them person-to-person, I gauge their reactions and work with the feedback they give me... And yet, no one is interested in trying something new. God forbid they have a different experience, within their lifetime, than they've had so far.

I don't understand it.

That is pretty typical, if you are a supervisor you might get a superficial conversation, but in business most people are doing the best they can to show up on time and seem halfway competent, they generally don't have time or energy to make nice conversation with their coworkers.

No mystery at all.

In today's world, people on average move away from intellectualism of any kind. Its not just Go... try asking them what books they read - you'll get black stares most likely. Try asking them what is their favorite opera. Or what caught their eye last time they have been to an art museum.

Personally I blame three things, among others:
1. the school system which does not stress the importance of intellectual pursuits,
2. parents, who being a product of the same system, don't add anything positive, and just dump it all on schools (with sad results), and
3. the mass media (including internet), in which children programs/games do anything they can to prevent kids from having any smarts or attention span longer than a few sec.

Now - we can ask why is the above, and who is responsible and what is the motivation behind making it so.
Which, I think, is a much more interesting question, although not really that hard.
To question why, given the above, we are the way we are - its trivial. We have little choice, once we accepted the direction we are being led.

In a nutshell - our society stresses different values than intellectual and/or cultural growth, that's all. Try asking people at work to try a new kind of "beer pong", check out a new "jackass" movie, or watch a new kind of "desperate" reality show - and I bet the reaction will be much more positive than to Go. Share with them some new celebrity gossip - and you'll have friends forever.

People *are* very open to new kinds of fun, I think they are even starved for it. Its just that what they have been taught until now is that fun is the pre-chewed and pre-packaged pulp they are being fed, nothing else. And, most importantly, fun is something that involves, for most part, no effort whatsoever, just being entertained - and paying for it, of course... somebody's got to make money, after all, no? Its the american way, baby!

There is no money in Go, sadly.

And yes, its a bleak world I see when I look out my window. And it doesn't get any better as days go by. I am an old cynic. So sue me.

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Thanx for reply. Actually I have the same feeling.

For effective sharing this charming game, I prepared the introduction in different languages. The series of speeches I'm working on now is totally in English which is not my mother tongue. And to make the introduction more attractive, I integrate the video of Hikaru no GO and the surrounding game's trailer in the invitation letter. But the reaction is like a sinking stone in a big lake without any sound and sample.

I'll just argue that many people in my workplace have other intellectual pursuits which limits to their time to new ones like Go. We have people who create movies, play Bridge or Chess, sports, electronics hobbyists. You don't need to argue that intellectualism is dying when it's often the case everyone is simply busy.

Darkpolarbear, you forgot to add something after or before you quoted me in your post.

I understand the two simple concepts of life at work here. One is that people have their own fun, their own sphere of activity. Another is that change is scary and often unpleasant (apparently, though not for me, I find). The first is a by-product of the way we generate our own consciousness and interact with 'reality', and the other is part that, part evolution.

But the main comment I get when trying to find out what state people are usually in is 'bored'. People are bored, things are slow, they don't know what to do with themselves, etc. This is what happens when you have one modality of entertainment: it gets repetitive and you run out. And then what?

Nevertheless people don't want to try "A fun game that's easy to learn". I usually don't get into 'oldest game in the world', 'deep and complex strategy' or any of those angles (they kill the buzz faster than simply catering to the idea of a fun board game). But the idea of learning 3-4 rules and playing a game seems completely beyond most.

On the other hand, they'll pick up Magic: the Gathering or some sort of war board game with cards, dice, math, and a zillion rules without a second thought. Why?

Well first it's not foreign, or at least it was made in the Western world. I find that's a factor a lot of the time. Second, people already play the other games. It doesn't matter that there are millions of players in China, Korea and Japan. They don't see people play it here. They're not exposed to it. And in the back of their minds no doubt is the idea that even if they learn it, they won't be able to play it with their friends.

Makes it hard to spread the word, y'know?

If you go to lunch with any of them, take a printed 5x5 board and some stones.

Say "let's play" while waiting for food, or between bites.

Teach on a 5x5 and play first capture go. It will take 5 minutes for 2-3 games.

When a game ends in no captures, count territory.

Once black always wins, go to 7x7.

Then when no captures happen, count territory, and play future games dropping first capture. Now you're playing "real go".

Do you think that will work?

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I've never had much trouble generating interest among co-workers. If I offer to explain, people are up for it. If I organise an introduction, people show up. What is rare is for people to then take it up as a hobby, to have them go to a club regularly, visit tournaments, etc. Most have some fun trying it out for a few weeks because it is new and fun, maybe they'll play online a few times. But they generally already have a life. Work, family and hobbies that consume their time. And so they will drift away from the game again.

Happy you made different experiences than me. Although I am not sure if I would bunch bridge and making movies as 'intellectual pursuits' - at least not when they do it in some of the way I have seen it done. But again - glad you have a different experience.

Having said the above, it surprises me that none of the chess players are interested in Go? Historically, chess playing community is a fertile ground for recruiting new Go players.

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- Bantari
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If understand correctly the point of this discussion is to work out how to do two things:

1) To get people to try go and then keep them playing.
2) Build or maintain friendships so you can enjoy playing go with these people for years to come.

That being the case the answer seems obvious. I can't be too specific, but Stockholm syndrome almost makes it too easy.

Actually, I think it is quite the opposite. I think the view of "go, books, opera, art" as intellectual is far too narrow.

Ask them how often they play computer games. Many of those games can be quite intellectually challenging. Whether it is strategy games, shooters, fighting games or puzzle games, they generally require quick and flexible thinking. The computer provides options that we simply did not have available 50 years ago. There are boardgames that I prefer to play on the computer because the computer does all the tedious bookkeeping for me. No more endless counters and tokens or pen and paper, I can actually spend my time focussing on strategy.

In the current day and age, I think kids are more and more likely to choose the mental challenge of computer games over the physical challenge of sports, which may be contributing to a growing obesity problem.

Don't forget that we're living in the golden age of complex TV: longer narrative arcs, more complicated plots, etc. It's not really what I spend my time on, but it's no longer "dumb stuff".

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Occupy Babel!

I can generally get chess players to try it out. As a matter of fact, my stock answer to the inevitable "Is it kinda like chess?" question is "Yeah, it's similar". I tend to accentuate the ways they're (hardly) similar, and pepper the basics with ideas of how this game can be fun. This is important because 'chess' and 'fun' are rarely synonymous for non-regulars.

I still don't like doing this much, but I find it helps to compare Go to a game they already know relatively well. It makes them more comfortable than a strange game that comes from where there be dragons.

The below is just my opinions, so your mileage might vary.
I seriously do not wish to offend anybody or to burst any pretty little bubbles.


Huh? You don't consider the above as 'intellectual'? Remember - I just gave examples, never claimed it to be an exhaustive list.


Most of the games these days are not very challenging intellectually. Most shooters rely on fast fast pace and reflexes, and profit not from complex plots but from over-the-board graphics and special effects. This is not to say there is no 'thinking' required, but most games are laid out so that even the dumbest of them all can play and enjoy, no need to be intellectually agile. Otherwise it would limit the potential market too much, and this would not be commercially advisable.

This is why in most dorms computer games and beer go well together. And, by contrast, Go and beer usually does not. (Disclaimer: whatever you heard about me - I will deny everything, it never happened, and you cannot prove it! Heh...)

True, there are games out there with more of an intellectual component, but they are often either niche games or short-lived trends. At least - this is my opinion. Most computer games I ever played could be played by drunk grade-school kids while watching a movie at the same time or whatever. I know, I tried. And what's more - they are specifically designed to be like that.


I agree on that.


If you mean they rather play basketball on their XBox using their thumbs than actually go out and play the game physically - I agree with that as well. But in what way is that an improvement?

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- Bantari
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We must be watching a different TV, dude... seriously. These days - you can hardly find a scene which takes longer than a few seconds before the camera pans to something else. Even for scenes which require longer continuity, all kinds of tricks are used, like jumping from face to face, and stuff like that. Granted - this is not only to keep the interest of the viewer, but it does terrible things to your attention span in the long run.

Why do you think all the... ahemm... "reality" shows are so popular these days? Easy, no depth required, and big payoff.

Look at children programs - there are almost no scenes longer than about 2 seconds or so, before the scene changes. Even in cartoons - and this *is* done specifically to keep kids interested. Anything for higher ratings, and we can't afford to risk losing a kid's interest when he gets bored by looking at the same scene for longer than 2 sec.

Even the news, instead of concentrating on what is really important and can have influence on your life and how you make decisions - just shows you recent murders, car chasers, fires, accidental deaths, kidnapping, and an occasional spelling bee winner. Just too keep you glued to the TV at any cost, and the dumber you are the easier it will be, so there is absolutely no interest in the media to educate you or show you deeper content so you actually develop intellectually.

And don't even get me started on the commercials! How can anybody get into any content in any depth if every 3 minutes he is assaulted by trivia about plumbing services or new developments in female hygiene, sometimes within the same ad? And all playing at twice the regular volume - so you don't, god forbid, miss a single word of that drivel even if you happen to go to the bathroom or something. Even when the plot of the actual show does happen to be deep - you can hardly ever experience it with you mind being so forcefully ripped away and shredded by blatant commercialism ever few minutes. If you really need a proof of low intellectual value of present-day TV, just think about that.

I mean - I have no clue what kind of TV people were fed on in the US in the past, but it could hardly be worse than it is now. If it was, you all have my condolences, my apologies, and I will not complain or try to reason with you people anymore, since there is simply no point. Your brains are fried, period.

For myself - I know that the TV I was watching in my youth was not quite like that.

In the movies - same thing - I am not so sure about deeper plots neither. There were always shallow movies, and there were always deep movies. Today is no exception. However, when you look at the box office hits from years past, you will find movies like Quo Vadis, Ben Hur, Doctor Zhivago, and so on... look at more modern box office charts... Transformers, Iron Man, Twilight Saga, Fast and Furious, and so on... Or compare old hits and newer remakes... in most cases the remakes make things worse rather than better, imho.

And while not all of todays movies are shallow, just like not all past movies were deep, I can see a steady decline. An odd outlier here and there notwithstanding.

Anyways - as said in my previous post, I don't want to upset anybody here. I am probably wrong about all that, and all the kids gorging on blood and gore and body parts flying around on their TV screens, punctuated by commercial breaks every few minutes enticing them to eat more burgers and drink more beer - they are all on the way to becoming modern-day geniuses... it's all good for them... what do I know, after all. Just venting...

PS>
So - how about getting this admission to Grumpy Old Men club? Have I earned it yet?

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Thanx, though I don't think it is my case. I'm working for a French company. I'm sure my colleagues spend a lot of time in entertainment.

I agree with you. At least in the U.S. we are very anti-intellectual. It reminds me of the book: Nerds: Who They Are and Why We Need More of Them.

When I was a beginner and was first going to a Go club I ran into a guy at the office I was working who went to the same club. He said, "wait a minute, weren't you at the go club?"

It was a really bizarre coincidence. But we never played go at work. We worked at work. It was kind of like Fight Club or something...

Anyway, you can get players, but maybe what you are trying is too overt. It has to be more like, "what are you up to Tuesday nights?" type of thing...