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How Strong are Insei?
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Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  How Strong are Insei?
I have a few questions about insei that I cannot find answers to. Just how strong are insei in various countries? Obviously, the top insei are at or just a tiny bit below pro level, but how about the weakest? Approximately what rank would they have if they were to play on a server like KGS? And is one country's insei known to be stronger than another's?
Author:  Shaddy [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How Strong are Insei?
I have read that the top of the entire ladder of korean insei cannot give the bottom two stones. I don't know how the various countries' insei stack up against each other, but I think they would all be 9d on something like kgs. (maybe the weakest among them might be 8d?)
Author:  Toge [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How Strong are Insei?
Shaddy wrote:
I have read that the top of the entire ladder of korean insei cannot give the bottom two stones.


- Really? Take a young child who wishes to become a professional (at the age of 12-18). Where is he or she going to study if the insei system is only catering for those who are already at the very top of the barrel?
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How Strong are Insei?
I think, I heard that the top Korean Inseis are at professional 1 Dan level but due to limited spots only <random small number> can become porfessional at a time. Don't know anything about the others.
Author:  ketchup [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How Strong are Insei?
I only know of two examples on KGS: rapyuta is definitely confirmed as having been an insei(here I assume you mean Japenese, since you choose this term). He's quite strong. 9d for sure on KGS.

Macisajt(where this information comes from, I believe) was also a former Insei(European who went to train in Japan), and is currently 7d on KGS.

I'd say it's between strong 7d -> 9d, but depending on age and other factors, they make take a weaker player if he shows rapid growth/improvement/ is young of age.

I'm sure there are a few more players you can find, but you see the pattern..
Author:  topazg [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How Strong are Insei?
Dusk Eagle wrote:
I have a few questions about insei that I cannot find answers to. Just how strong are insei in various countries? Obviously, the top insei are at or just a tiny bit below pro level, but how about the weakest? Approximately what rank would they have if they were to play on a server like KGS? And is one country's insei known to be stronger than another's?


Alex is the person to ask, but my understanding that all the top league of inseis in Korea are pretty much pro level, and the top end being comfortably pro level.
Author:  Dante31 [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How Strong are Insei?
I doubt it is possible to provide a definitive answer to your question. All Insei schools are not made equal, so it would differ from place to place. I am sure it is safe to say that an Insei would be a dan level player on kgs.

I have to agree with Toge. I doubt that they are all at least 7d kgs. I am sure those that are just starting out as Insei are probably 1d-3d (the very young of course).
Author:  Sverre [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How Strong are Insei?
Sorin Gherman (former insei in japan) has some information on his site:

Sorin Gherman wrote:
The D class insei were not so strong, maybe around European amateur 1-2 dan.
Author:  Dante31 [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How Strong are Insei?
This is pretty much what I expected. Insei in Korea and China are reportedly stronger than in Japan but still I am sure they aren't much stronger than that.
Author:  youngjae [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How Strong are Insei?
Dante31 wrote:
I doubt it is possible to provide a definitive answer to your question.


I can give you one! I am studying in Korea in Yu Chang'hyuk's go school, so I have become quite familiar with the insei system over here.

In Korea insei are called 'yongguseng' and anyone who is a yongguseng in Korea is extremely strong. I am not sure about Japan, but in Korea if you study in a Dojang to become a pro, you are not automatically a yongguseng. You have to be in top class to even be considered a yongguseng.

The yongguseng in Yu Chang'hyuk's dojang play pros regularly and often win, in fact some have even beaten Yu Chang'hyuk himself (even games in case you were wondering).
Even the weakest in Korea yongguseng are almost definitely KGS 9dan.

Obviously the younger children in the lower classes are not quite as strong, but they not considered yongguseng.

I hope this helps... :)
Author:  gowan [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How Strong are Insei?
AS some posts have indicated, the term insei does not have a uniform definition from country to country. Essentially it means a person recognized in some official way as prepring to become a professional player. In Japan you have to qualify somehow, e.g. by having games reviewed or by playing with a pro. Then you can participate in organized training classes or games. Some people are disciples of a particular pro who is a coach or teacher in preparation for the pro qualification tournament, but you can be an insei without having a particular pro as teacher. Young beginning pro students might be fairly weak players, as Sorin says, around amateur 2 dan, for example. Michael Redmond was age 13 and around US 5-dan (probably equivalent to 6 or 7 dan now) when he went to Japan to become a live-in disciple of Oeda. He was accepted by the Nihon Kiin as an insei at age 14 and qualified as 1p at age 18.

As far as playing strength is concerned, the top class of pro students are all pretty close to pro strength. Since only the top three finishers in the pro qualification tournament actually qualify for 1p, most of the top class inseis never make pro but are, in most respects, of professional strength. But it is worth noting that some of them have been training intensively for several years just to get to the top insei class.
Author:  Stefany93 [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How Strong are Insei?
The Indeis are so strong that while they are talking to you, you have already lost a game :shock:
Author:  breakfast [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How Strong are Insei?
Not all 9-dans on KGS are able to enter Korean Insei League. You have to be strong 9d on KGS!
Author:  usagi [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How Strong are Insei?
Toge wrote:
Shaddy wrote:
I have read that the top of the entire ladder of korean insei cannot give the bottom two stones.


- Really? Take a young child who wishes to become a professional (at the age of 12-18). Where is he or she going to study if the insei system is only catering for those who are already at the very top of the barrel?


As I have heard, insei (in Japan) can enter the bottom class around 1d to 5d, but they improve very quickly.
Author:  Fredrik [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How Strong are Insei?
Another sign of Korean inseis strength is that the european champion Ilya Shiksin failed to become one when he tried (about a year ago or so?)
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