I am looking for the SGF of this game:

1987-05-20 Japan-China Go Exchange
Kamimura Haruo 8-dan of Japan vs. Wang Qun 8-dan of China

Several sources have incorrect move sequences. This game should be in the 1987 Chinese Yearbook but I misplaced my copy.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Here's the version in GoGoD, though I don't know what version it is transcribed from.

Thanks for that. That is game #3 from the 3-game match between the two players. I am looking for game #1 played on 20th May.

Oh, sorry! I missed the date and had the colours the wrong way around...apparently Wang Qun was playing white?

In that case, GoGoD has two versions and a note that they're both included precisely because they're so different.

I don't think I'd rush to assume the Chinese Year Book version is correct. At any rate, in GoGoD we included this game twice as the Japanese version and Chinese version were so different, and both may well be incorrect. This was a very common problem in the Japan-China exchanges where games were not recorded at the time but by the players, from memory, afterwards. The idea that pros can easily remember their own games has to be taken cum grano salis.

Thanks you very much!

The version 2 is clearly wrong. Move 169 is absurd (must be at C4, otherwise why on earth white plays C3 next?)

It is a surprise that GoGoD puts apparently incorrect SGF in the collection when there's an alternative. Some other online collections either shared the incorrect source or simply copied from GoGoD.

Given the nature of the recording, as John says, maybe the problem is that the other sgf may be merely unclearly wrong.

Naughty, naughty!

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Can anyone share the SGF of another game in the same tournament?

1987-05-26 Japan-China Go Exchange
Kao Masao (B) vs. Jiang Zhujiu (W)

Yes, but other than that, version 2 goes on a bit longer and has a extra exchange at

The truth may well be in the middle.

Didn't gogod do the same thing in copying pro moves and selling them? If the collection cites the source of the game, I don't see a problem.

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be immersed

I have no idea what the actual copyright law result is/should be, but the major difference is that GoGoD would/do receive rights based on their cataloguing and recording to create a new collected work. In contrast, merely copying their database (a technically trivial derivation) doesn't/wouldn't accord the copier those same rights. That is, it isn't about the copyright of the games, but about the collection.

Regardless of the exact result of the law, I would personally find it reasonable for them to have some rights over their collection, based on the extreme time and dedication required to build it.

Edit: And to directly address your chosen wording, no it really isn't the same thing. As above, any rights obtained by GoGoD would be for the construction of their collection as a whole, not for any claim of owning an individual move of an individual entry. The standard analogy is of an author being allowed copyright of his book, even if he may have used letters (or even ideas, tropes and entire plot constructions) from other works.

Well, the actual law is probably all that really matters, because there are different opinions on the morals behind this or the amount of work something constitutes.



Disagree.

As far as I understand, macelee was referring to an individual game, to which your argument does not apply. If someone took the entire gogod collection and tried to sell it as their own, then I can see that someone might argue that it took time to put together the collection.

But we are talking about a single game record here, and copying this from gogod takes the same amount of work as it took for gogod to copy it from a book or whatever source they found it in.

If you want to talk about effort or dedication, what about the dedication of those that compiled the original sources?

These days electronic sgfs might make reproducing a particular game easier, but for a single game, copying is copying.

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be immersed

Its a funny thing that this simple request for a game record derailed into copyright discussion.
But since we are there, and talking about GoGoD as well, there is one thing I always wanted to ask:
When GoGoD compiles its collection, by copying from all kinds of sources in bulk, I would assume, does that not violate the copyright law in some way? Or do they get a permission each time? Or do they see this as game-by-game copying? Or what?

Nothing against GoGoD - great job, you guys - just wondering.

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No. The GoGOD copyright is a compilation copyright, IIUC.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Does compilation copyright apply to a single game? I don't think we're talking about somebody copying the collection, but rather a game record.

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be immersed

I was only asking for a single game earlier and wasn't expect the change of topic in this thread.

I was reading about these Go Exchange games earlier (probably the only major form of international event before having the real world championships like Fujitsu and Ing Cup), I decided that it would be nice to include some of these games in my go4go collection. I found a few in my collections of old books and magazines. Then I found a score table containing all the game results. Then when I searched on the internet I found a few more game records, including the one that contains the obvious errors.

I give these details here to make a point: in this process, I studied a lot of background information of the tournament as well as checked the moves in the games, making sure what entering my database is of reasonably high quality. When there's discrepancies, I need to make a judgement which version is better (or most likely to be correct). This is what's called compilation - extra values have been added.

I did notice a few online game collections containing exactly the same wrong move sequences as in the GoGoD version of that game, therefore making the comment that they "either shared the incorrect source or simply copied from GoGoD". Of course I have no way to know exactly what happened. But I tend to believe that if a game collection containing tens of thousands of games appears to have come from nowhere, it is unlikely to be properly 'compiled'.

Strictly I think the copyright applies to the ordering of the information rather than the information itself. A collection copyright makes absolutely no claim to holding copyright over the material.

This case from last month was interesting: http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/4/469382 ... opyright-a

AFAIK, the sgfs on GoGoD were manually inputted from game records. This takes some time (work) and is different from clicking the copy button.

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Patience, grasshopper.

Since GoGOD is manually inputting the records of a factual event from various sources, there is nothing wrong with looking at a GoGOD record from a collection you own on one sgf editor and manually entering the same record in a different editor for inclusion along with records from other sources in another database you plan to use commercially. Unless of course if GoGOD proves that the record is a fictional work it composed, but then if so, why would paying go players want GoGOD game records in the first place?

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