Life In 19x19 :: What is your preference for opening moves?

When I started playing go in middle school, I hated how white could play the 3-3 to steal away my corner when I had played the 4-4. I also loved how the 3-3 was rock solid. As far as I remember, I've never had my corner stolen when I've played a 3-3 stone and my 3-3 stone has never died. When you play a 3-3 the chemical composition of the stone changes from yunzi to titanium - nothing can destroy it.

My first fuseki

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c My first fuseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The balance I found was to play both a 3-3 and a 3-4 and then enclose the 3-4 right away so I had a nice enclosure and fairly solid corner territory. This opening actually saw professional play by Fujisawa Hosai, so arguably I was using a professional-level fuseki when I first started playing go. (Most of his later games flipped the direction of the enclosure, but some of his games had that one)

However, I did eventually discover that I couldn't develop easily from the 3-3. My opponent would build things bigger than me and that was a problem because I was bad at reducing. So, my opening updated when I played go again in college.

My second go-to opening

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c My second go-to opening $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This opening was all about developing the right. I wanted to get enclosures on both corners AND have my position not be split. Obviously that is asking too much, but usually I could get an enclosure on one or the other. There are many problems with this opening - as far as I know, no professional has ever played this one regularly.

But then, everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked! Erm, I mean, everything changed when I started to study go...

My current go-to fuseki

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c My current go-to fuseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

When I read "Go! More than a Game" by Peter Shotwell I saw a diagram with this position. It was called the "Low Chinese Fuseki." From the moment I saw it in college I fell in love. It looked so beautiful to me. It offered potential for development, but still a grab for territory with the 3-4 stone. It also didn't rely on my opponent letting me do anything like the Mini Chinese did. And I began to play it. I've played this as both black and white. Against Orthodox and San-ren-sai and other Chinese fuseki. I still love it - even if it does now feel a bit stale to me.

Perhaps stale is not the best word, it feels very familiar. It's like putting on that old coat you've warn for five years. You know it has some holes in it and it isn't really "in style" anymore, but you wear it because it's comfortable. I've found weaknesses in the Low Chinese (and also strengths) and I've heard reasons why pros don't play it as much anymore (they still play it, but Micro Chinese is all the rage for now). But I don't care. This opening is beautiful and elegant and all of the stones flow together.

So the Low Chinese was really why I started to play the 4-4 stone. I rarely play Nirensei as black, but I do usually play Nirensei as white. I've just found it hard to build a framework with white so I prefer the flexibility of the 4-4 stone (which is its primary appeal to me).

Author:	DrStraw [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:	What is your preference for opening moves?
4-4 seems to be the most popular opening move for both black and white in the games I play. I have always disliked this move and rarely play it. My preference is for 4-3. Second choice would be 3-3, then 3-5, 4-5 and then finally 4-4 if I cannot see a reason for any of the others. Of course, I try to fit the fuseki, but all other things being equal this is the order in which I consider possible moves. I was curious as to what other people's preferences may be.

Author:	moyoaji [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
I once thought as you did. I didn't play 4-4 stones regularly until about a year ago. But for now, I would say this is my preference list: 1. 4-4 2. 3-4 3. 3-3 4. 5-4 5. 5-3 6. 6-4 However, I have an uneasy relationship with the 4-4 stone. It is almost like an old arranged marriage. It's not that I was that upset about the 4-4 stone. She has a lot of attractive qualities. It's not even that I don't love the 4-4 stone anymore. It's just that I didn't really choose her - I feel like I got stuck with her. And, as I've gotten to know her, I've also found things I don't like about her. But I think we can work things out, and there are still a lot of things I like about her. There is a reason she is my number one choice even after all this time. My preference for opening moves has changed as my play has evolved. I've had 3 main fusekis that I've used. My favorite opening move used to be 3-3. Then 3-4. If you are interested, here is my history of fuseki and opening move preferences as black: When I started playing go in middle school, I hated how white could play the 3-3 to steal away my corner when I had played the 4-4. I also loved how the 3-3 was rock solid. As far as I remember, I've never had my corner stolen when I've played a 3-3 stone and my 3-3 stone has never died. When you play a 3-3 the chemical composition of the stone changes from yunzi to titanium - nothing can destroy it. My first fuseki Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c My first fuseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . \| $$ \| . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] The balance I found was to play both a 3-3 and a 3-4 and then enclose the 3-4 right away so I had a nice enclosure and fairly solid corner territory. This opening actually saw professional play by Fujisawa Hosai, so arguably I was using a professional-level fuseki when I first started playing go. (Most of his later games flipped the direction of the enclosure, but some of his games had that one) However, I did eventually discover that I couldn't develop easily from the 3-3. My opponent would build things bigger than me and that was a problem because I was bad at reducing. So, my opening updated when I played go again in college. My second go-to opening Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c My second go-to opening $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] This opening was all about developing the right. I wanted to get enclosures on both corners AND have my position not be split. Obviously that is asking too much, but usually I could get an enclosure on one or the other. There are many problems with this opening - as far as I know, no professional has ever played this one regularly. But then, everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked! Erm, I mean, everything changed when I started to study go... My current go-to fuseki Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c My current go-to fuseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] When I read "Go! More than a Game" by Peter Shotwell I saw a diagram with this position. It was called the "Low Chinese Fuseki." From the moment I saw it in college I fell in love. It looked so beautiful to me. It offered potential for development, but still a grab for territory with the 3-4 stone. It also didn't rely on my opponent letting me do anything like the Mini Chinese did. And I began to play it. I've played this as both black and white. Against Orthodox and San-ren-sai and other Chinese fuseki. I still love it - even if it does now feel a bit stale to me. Perhaps stale is not the best word, it feels very familiar. It's like putting on that old coat you've warn for five years. You know it has some holes in it and it isn't really "in style" anymore, but you wear it because it's comfortable. I've found weaknesses in the Low Chinese (and also strengths) and I've heard reasons why pros don't play it as much anymore (they still play it, but Micro Chinese is all the rage for now). But I don't care. This opening is beautiful and elegant and all of the stones flow together. So the Low Chinese was really why I started to play the 4-4 stone. I rarely play Nirensei as black, but I do usually play Nirensei as white. I've just found it hard to build a framework with white so I prefer the flexibility of the 4-4 stone (which is its primary appeal to me).

Author:	leichtloeslich [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
DrStraw wrote: 4-4 seems to be the most popular opening move for both black and white in the games I play. I hae always disliked this move and rarely play it. ... why? As you say, it seems pretty popular. (I have trouble thinking of professional games I've seen recently which don't feature at least one 4-4 during the first 4 moves of the game.) I usually play 4-4 and 3-4 with white, because I have little idea what I'm doing as white anyway and trying to play too territorially usually ends up very bad for me. (I'm much better at threatening big frameworks and chasing/killing groups than at invading/reducing.) With black I usually only play 3-4, but that doesn't mean I'll always take the corner. Even with a finished shimari (3-4 with a small keima added and no enemy stones around) I'm usually happy to let my opponent invade "my corner" with a tripod in gote while I get outside influence. My only problem with 4-4 is that often people will try to be sneaky and get both the influence and a large corner, preferably in sente, so you always have to keep an eye on that. But that's just a timing question. People who really want the corner probably shouldn't play 4-4 in the first place.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
1) 4-4 2) 3-4 (I usually play one of each.) 3) 3-5 4) 5-5 5) 4-5

Author:	lemmata [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
I like 4-4 as my first move as either black or white. I like that it makes directional choices more flexible. Maybe that's just in my mind, but I find that the game is easier to think about when I play this way. As white, I prefer nirensei unless I want play more actively against Chinese opening variations because of my mood. As black, I prefer to play 3-4 (direction depending on white's moves) as my move immediately after 4-4. I guess overall, I like 4-4 > 3-4 > 5-4 > 3-3 > 3-5.

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

What is your preference for opening moves? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9478	Page 1 of 2

Author:	paK0 [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
4-4 all the time I'd like to add 3-4 at some point, but I have enough trouble with the game as it is, no need to confuse myself further and 4-4 seems to produce easier corner-situations most of the time.

Author:	SoDesuNe [ Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
I'm most comfortable with 3-4 all along - for Black and for White. But sometimes I play 3-4 and 4-4, mostly as White and only as White I rarely play double 4-4 aswell.

Author:	daal [ Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
I currently prefer a diagonal opening, and will offer it as white and accept it as black. I often play double 3-3s as white, but as black I don't have much of a preference - though I don't play any 5-3s or 5-4s anymore.

Author:	DrStraw [ Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
leichtloeslich wrote: DrStraw wrote: 4-4 seems to be the most popular opening move for both black and white in the games I play. I hae always disliked this move and rarely play it. ... why? As you say, it seems pretty popular. (I have trouble thinking of professional games I've seen recently which don't feature at least one 4-4 during the first 4 moves of the game.) Probably because when I was learning to play it was rarely seen in pro games in the material I used to study. I used Sakata's books to learn fuseki and he used a lot of 3-4 and 3-3. To this day 4-4 leaves me with an unsatisfied feeling because I feel very comfortable with 3-4 joseki and my ability to choose one appropriate to the position.

Author:	nacroxnicke [ Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:26 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
I started with the 4-4 when i was beginner, then I changed to 3-3 or 3-4, but now since I rediscovered how influence works I changed again to 4-4. Fast developing is a thing

Author:	hyperpape [ Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
For black, I have started playing the one space jump surrounding tengen that Shapenaji and Bill discussed a while back. I find it refreshing, as it doesn't match at all with my usual style. In the past, I played the enclosure opening, a mini chinese (with either a 3-4 or 4-4 point in the other corner) or the orthodox fuseki as black. For white, I play any combination of 4-4 and 3-4 points I feel like.

Author:	Ortho [ Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
I play two adjacent 4-4 points with either color, my idea being to have games that are familiar as possible, learn the 3-4 josekis when my opponent plays them and to spend my study time on life and death and fighting, but am really starting to wonder if I should be playing a broader range of moves in the opening. I see lots and lots of players weaker than me with very complex ideas about what they want to do in the opening. I'm not sure at what strength just playing 2 hoshis is too basic.

Author:	gowan [ Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
I guess my most frequent first move as Black would be 3-4 (or 4-3 ) but I often play 4-4 and even more frequently as White. I enjoy thinking about direction issues, balance, and development potential in the opening and I get more of that with 3-4. I think 4-4 starts are popular now-a-days because of speed of development and flexibility. Among amateurs 4-4 starts may be more popular because it is easier to get a level of understanding of direction and development issues. That's probably why there is such a lot of san-ren-sei playing by kyu players. Also, many people came up playing handicap games with stronger players and in that case, of course, Black always starts with star point stones.

Author:	SmoothOper [ Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
I like the 3-3. Initially the smaller number of Joseki appealed to me, and of the alternate openings(3-4,3-5,5-4) it appeared to be the strongest against the 4-4, which is so popular. If go weren't so cut throat, I would like to experiment with other openings, maybe 5-4 and 3-5 and tengen, but there aren't many good resources for studying these openings except maybe an addendum in a joseki book and a few odd pro games, and generally these openings don't mesh well with the traditional handicap ranking systems used by the AGA, which has officially endorsed the 4-4 as the only sanctioned handicap placement.

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Author:	Dusk Eagle [ Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
My most common openings involve one 4-4 and one 3-4 when I'm black, and two 4-4s when I'm white.

Author:	daal [ Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
SmoothOper wrote: ...I would like to experiment with other openings, maybe 5-4 and 3-5 and tengen, but there aren't many good resources for studying these openings except maybe an addendum in a joseki book and a few odd pro games, and generally these openings don't mesh well with the traditional handicap ranking systems used by the AGA, which has officially endorsed the 4-4 as the only sanctioned handicap placement. Lol! Have you ever looked at a joseki book? Before the addendum they have things called "chapters." And if you are interested in pro games, there are in fact hundreds if not thousands to keep you occupied. As to your last comment about handicap placement stones, it just doesn't make sense - or do you only play handicap games?

Author:	dumbrope [ Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
daal wrote: SmoothOper wrote: ...I would like to experiment with other openings, maybe 5-4 and 3-5 and tengen, but there aren't many good resources for studying these openings except maybe an addendum in a joseki book and a few odd pro games, and generally these openings don't mesh well with the traditional handicap ranking systems used by the AGA, which has officially endorsed the 4-4 as the only sanctioned handicap placement. Lol! Have you ever looked at a joseki book? Before the addendum they have things called "chapters." And if you are interested in pro games, there are in fact hundreds if not thousands to keep you occupied. As to your last comment about handicap placement stones, it just doesn't make sense - or do you only play handicap games? 5-3 and 5-4 are my favorite first moves as white in a handicap game so I don't get the handicap game comment. In even games, I like some kind of 3-4 + 4-4 combination either as black or white, but which I choose depends on my opponent's moves. For a while I did like the 3-3 (inspired more by Sakata than Cho Chikun), but my record with it was terrible. I still may use it as white in a diagonal opening if I want a small-scale game.

Author:	SmoothOper [ Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
dumbrope wrote: daal wrote: SmoothOper wrote: ...I would like to experiment with other openings, maybe 5-4 and 3-5 and tengen, but there aren't many good resources for studying these openings except maybe an addendum in a joseki book and a few odd pro games, and generally these openings don't mesh well with the traditional handicap ranking systems used by the AGA, which has officially endorsed the 4-4 as the only sanctioned handicap placement. Lol! Have you ever looked at a joseki book? Before the addendum they have things called "chapters." And if you are interested in pro games, there are in fact hundreds if not thousands to keep you occupied. As to your last comment about handicap placement stones, it just doesn't make sense - or do you only play handicap games? 5-3 and 5-4 are my favorite first moves as white in a handicap game so I don't get the handicap game comment. In even games, I like some kind of 3-4 + 4-4 combination either as black or white, but which I choose depends on my opponent's moves. For a while I did like the 3-3 (inspired more by Sakata than Cho Chikun), but my record with it was terrible. I still may use it as white in a diagonal opening if I want a small-scale game. Who said you deserved white when playing me?

Author:	Boidhre [ Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
I've always liked a pair of 3-4 stones as Black purely from an aesthetic point of view, which I think is perfectly acceptable as a reason to choose them. I vary quite a bit as white, sometimes feeling like the flexibility that 4-4 brings, sometimes favouring 3-4 stones and occasionally 3-5 stones if I feel like something a bit different.

Author:	oren [ Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
Boidhre wrote: I've always liked a pair of 3-4 stones as Black purely from an aesthetic point of view, which I think is perfectly acceptable as a reason to choose them. Facing each other, both on the same third line or opposite?