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What barriers to improving should I expect?
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Author:  Ahwahnee [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  What barriers to improving should I expect?
I've looked at the rank graphs and game rosters of some of my opponents. Some of them have hovered at their current ranks for month ... even years. :-?

I can't help but wonder if I might plateau as some of my opponents have. I would imagine that even a leisure player with a desire to improve would still gradually show some progress over several months of thoughtful play, game reviews, honestly doing problems (no peeking at the answers until you're 100% certain you got it right) and all that sort of interesting study.

But I also thought I read somewhere that there are certain rank-related barriers where a lot of players do plateau. Are these real? If they are, what makes one break through? What makes one languish?

Sorry about all the questions today. I think I'm just in some befuddled state of mind.
Author:  fwiffo [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
Plateaus are normal, common and probably unavoidable. Most things involving learning/improvement have plateaus. Weightlifters, for instance, talk about plateaus all the time.

Plateaus are usually caused by a gap in knowledge. The gap in knowledge causes you to make mistakes. The first step in overcoming a plateau is to 1) identify the mistakes, then 2) correct the gap in knowledge that's causing the mistakes, then 3) integrating the new knowledge into your game.

Of course, most people will reach a point where they don't have the time, desire or ability to invest in improving their game any further. As you get stronger, improvement becomes progressively harder, and each piece of knowledge provides a smaller marginal benefit.
Author:  LovroKlc [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
I think it will be like this: you will improve for 2-3 stones almost instantly(1-2 weeks) then you will have a pause for some time and than repeat the process(when stronger less improvement). This pauses are times when you are getting new ideas and getting used to them, and these big leaps are when you understand them.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
Ahwahnee wrote:
But I also thought I read somewhere that there are certain rank-related barriers where a lot of players do plateau. Are these real?


People have plateaus from time to time. But rank-related barriers are only real if you believe that they are.
Author:  xed_over [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
Bill Spight wrote:
But rank-related barriers are only real if you believe that they are.

there is no spoon
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
Barriers? Let's see....

Stupidity, old age, lack of experience, greed, miscalculation, bad drugs, lack of sleep, and being hung over. That covers the majority, I think.

But, seriously...

Ahwahnee wrote:

...I also thought I read somewhere that there are certain rank-related barriers where a lot of players do plateau. Are these real?


No. The concept of rank-related barriers is complete drivel. The idea might have had some currency in a different culture and a different time, when every student in some lockstep Asian school had go knowledge drilled into his head by rote.
But now, the manner of learning is so varied, and the sequence in which people learn things is so varied, that there is no such thing as some concept that everyone has to learn at a certain rank. There may be some concepts that lots of people have trouble learning, but they are at varying ranks when they do.
Author:  ketchup [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
I will say Ego. There are some people who are very set on getting the highest possible rank. Some of them get very far, others not so much, but most do hit a barrier when they burn themselves out because they don't SEE themselves improving as fast as they think they should.

One more thing, comparison is such a bad idea. It's natural for a lot of us, but it's such a bad idea in this type of game.

If you keep the goal that you want to get stronger, and then takes steps to do so(tsumego, books, study, games, reviews, etc), then it will happen quite naturally. I think especially in this game, the amount of time and effort you put in, will be shown naturally in your playing strength.


This is so nicely said:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
But now, the manner of learning is so varied, and the sequence in which people learn things is so varied, that there is no such thing as some concept that everyone has to learn at a certain rank. There may be some concepts that lots of peole have trouble learning, but they are at varying ranks when they do.
Author:  Stefany93 [ Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
Ahwahnee wrote:
I've looked at the rank graphs and game rosters of some of my opponents. Some of them have hovered at their current ranks for month ... even years. :-?

I can't help but wonder if I might plateau as some of my opponents have. I would imagine that even a leisure player with a desire to improve would still gradually show some progress over several months of thoughtful play, game reviews, honestly doing problems (no peeking at the answers until you're 100% certain you got it right) and all that sort of interesting study.

But I also thought I read somewhere that there are certain rank-related barriers where a lot of players do plateau. Are these real? If they are, what makes one break through? What makes one languish?

Sorry about all the questions today. I think I'm just in some befuddled state of mind.



Wow you are 9k believe me you have nothing to worry about - I am stuck on 18k for 6 months - and if you have the desire to improve, you will, no matter what happen - even if WW 3 comes!
Author:  Aphelion [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
Stefany93 wrote:
Ahwahnee wrote:
I've looked at the rank graphs and game rosters of some of my opponents. Some of them have hovered at their current ranks for month ... even years. :-?

I can't help but wonder if I might plateau as some of my opponents have. I would imagine that even a leisure player with a desire to improve would still gradually show some progress over several months of thoughtful play, game reviews, honestly doing problems (no peeking at the answers until you're 100% certain you got it right) and all that sort of interesting study.

But I also thought I read somewhere that there are certain rank-related barriers where a lot of players do plateau. Are these real? If they are, what makes one break through? What makes one languish?

Sorry about all the questions today. I think I'm just in some befuddled state of mind.



Wow you are 9k believe me you have nothing to worry about - I am stuck on 18k for 6 months - and if you have the desire to improve, you will, no matter what happen - even if WW 3 comes!



How are you studying the game? Are you playing lots of games and reviewing them with a stronger player? In my experience, having a stronger player (should be at least stronger than 10k, ideally stronger than 5k) give you pointers can dramatically shorten your learning curve. This is especially true of players in the 20k - 12k range.
Author:  CarlJung [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
Stefany93 wrote:
Wow you are 9k believe me you have nothing to worry about - I am stuck on 18k for 6 months - and if you have the desire to improve, you will, no matter what happen - even if WW 3 comes!


The biggest mistake I did a few years ago was playing slow games (30 min main time) and no tsumego. Once I fixed that I improved a few stones fairly fast.
Author:  Stefany93 [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
Thank you guys, but I do all the stuff you said like studying, reviewing, reading books, and doing A LOT of tsumego. I have found out that my biggest mistake is that I have been studying and playing go every evening and that just keeps my level low - that is why i decided to have a little rest and lets see if it would give a good result :P
Author:  Magicwand [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
Stefany:

at your age and rank i suggest you to review professional games with comments.
i dont want you to learn wrong ideas from kyu level players.(sorry if i offended many)
just memorizing professional games will help you improve and will open your eyes in opening part of the game.
Author:  EricBackus [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
xed_over wrote:
there is no spoon


However, there is a Santa Claus.
Author:  Exologist [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
Hmm... I started with long games and no tsumego (well I did a few here and there but not much), and I've improved very rapidly. It is different for different people. What I did was read books written by pros about the basics. I'm good at absorbing knowledge from books, so that's what I do. I also like to review my own games immediately after finishing them: if I lost, see what my mistakes were and what I could've played differently, and if I won, what my opponent could've done to destroy me. Doing the latter is very humbling.

Either way progress always seems to be a trade off between life & death/running/reading and whole-board perspective. You'll often master the life and death (and other tactics) for your level but still not improve very much until you switch over to improving your global perspective.

Plateaus do exist, but you cannot expect them at any certain rank. If you're at a plateau, I suggest you review whether it is time to switch over to emphasis on strategy or tactics. What good is tactics if your opponent can grab the biggest stuff on the entire board before you? And what good is strategy if you can't keep your stones strong? I suppose it is also possible to gradually increase in skill in strategy and tactics simultaneously.
Author:  Aphelion [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
Magicwand wrote:
Stefany:

at your age and rank i suggest you to review professional games with comments.
i dont want you to learn wrong ideas from kyu level players.(sorry if i offended many)
just memorizing professional games will help you improve and will open your eyes in opening part of the game.


Its interesting, because a lot of people tell me I shouldn't review professional games until I am high dan. They say you won't have the reading to understand them if you review it early..
Author:  Ember [ Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
Aphelion wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
Stefany:

at your age and rank i suggest you to review professional games with comments.
i dont want you to learn wrong ideas from kyu level players.(sorry if i offended many)
just memorizing professional games will help you improve and will open your eyes in opening part of the game.


Its interesting, because a lot of people tell me I shouldn't review professional games until I am high dan. They say you won't have the reading to understand them if you review it early..


I don't think that Magicwand meant it in the way that Stefany should aim at fully understanding pro games - this would indeed be something only a high dan player could do (most of the time). What he meant might be to get a feeling for game flow, for good shape and how it affects a game and maybe understand a little part of each game (maybe only a sequence of 3 or 4 moves which might be "standard", but which she might not know yet) which in turn helps Stefany get new ideas for her games, e. g. in the opening (as Magicwand suggested).

I can remember something similar from my own experience. I'm a huge fan of Iyama Yuta and replay every game I can lay my (not-so-)bony hands on. In one game, I picked up a connection tesuji. I still don't know its name :D but I will NEVER EVER forget the shape and the moves in my whole life because:

- It was really simple but completely new for me and I could immediately integrate it in my games - since then, it won me quite a few games (extra bonus for remembering something)
- I understood it from a pro's game which somehow made me proud :razz: , especially as the move was played by my favourite pro. Although I cannot remember when the game was played and who was Iyama's opponent, I will never forget the tesuji, something a book could not have done for me even in so simple a case (I'm pretty sure about that)... ^^;

I must admit that this kind of thing doesn't happen very often, but when it happens be prepared to have something on your mind that has come to stay! :)
Author:  CarlJung [ Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
Aphelion wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
Stefany:

at your age and rank i suggest you to review professional games with comments.
i dont want you to learn wrong ideas from kyu level players.(sorry if i offended many)
just memorizing professional games will help you improve and will open your eyes in opening part of the game.


Its interesting, because a lot of people tell me I shouldn't review professional games until I am high dan. They say you won't have the reading to understand them if you review it early..



It's certainly true that you don't have the reading of a pro when you are just starting out. I think Magicwand is less concerned about actually reading everything out and more concerned about getting a feel for better play.
Author:  Magicwand [ Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
CarlJung wrote:
Aphelion wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
Stefany:

at your age and rank i suggest you to review professional games with comments.
i dont want you to learn wrong ideas from kyu level players.(sorry if i offended many)
just memorizing professional games will help you improve and will open your eyes in opening part of the game.


Its interesting, because a lot of people tell me I shouldn't review professional games until I am high dan. They say you won't have the reading to understand them if you review it early..



It's certainly true that you don't have the reading of a pro when you are just starting out. I think Magicwand is less concerned about actually reading everything out and more concerned about getting a feel for better play.


hum....when i was ddk many people gave me advice "memorize 100 professional games"
i love to review professional games. i didnt mean to memorize but after good review it was automatically remaind in my brain.
back then i really didnt feel any improvement but now i look back and can see that memorizing professional game really did help me improve faster.
Author:  Mosdefgo [ Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Barriers? Let's see....

Stupidity, old age, lack of experience, greed, miscalculation, bad drugs, lack of sleep, and being hung over. That covers the majority, I think.

But, seriously...


Yeah that about covers it for me too. :lol:

Back to the question; I think one barrier that I had, was that I had a bad habit of trying bad sequences or moves that usually never turned out good for me. I never really tried anything new.

But taking a small break without thinking about Go (This is super hard for me to do BTW ;-) ) will usually help you to forget some of those bad habits.

As for improving, I'm starting to find more and more that playing many games and doing tsumego will help you A LOT! But this might just apply to me...
Author:  xed_over [ Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What barriers to improving should I expect?
CarlJung wrote:
Aphelion wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
Stefany:

at your age and rank i suggest you to review professional games with comments.
i dont want you to learn wrong ideas from kyu level players.(sorry if i offended many)
just memorizing professional games will help you improve and will open your eyes in opening part of the game.


Its interesting, because a lot of people tell me I shouldn't review professional games until I am high dan. They say you won't have the reading to understand them if you review it early..



It's certainly true that you don't have the reading of a pro when you are just starting out. I think Magicwand is less concerned about actually reading everything out and more concerned about getting a feel for better play.


Magicwand wrote:
hum....when i was ddk many people gave me advice "memorize 100 professional games"
i love to review professional games. i didnt mean to memorize but after good review it was automatically remaind in my brain.
back then i really didnt feel any improvement but now i look back and can see that memorizing professional game really did help me improve faster.

I totally agree... when I was actively playing out and/or memorizing pro games, I was improving almost 1-2 stones per month (was just crossing over from DDK to SDK).

replaying (on a board) and/or memorizing pro games is one of my favorite things to do, but I just haven't had much time for it lately.

but clearly, not everyone enjoys this, or learns well from it (although, I think you'll learn more than you realize, if you just give it a serious try)
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