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| Hiding your clock from your opponent http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9771 |
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| Author: | walleye [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Hiding your clock from your opponent |
It occurred to me the other day that when I play on a game server I don't really need to see my opponent's clock. It is certainly nice to see it and any server I have used displays both mine and my opponent's clock. This may be useful in some circumstances. For instance, when I see my opponent is low on time I might want to remind him to play. On the other hand, since my opponent can see my clock, he might want to launch some complications just as I get short on time. So, I'm not sure that letting people see their opponent's clock is such a good idea. At the very least, there should be an option to hide your clock. What do you think? |
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| Author: | oren [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hiding your clock from your opponent |
Disagree. Time remaining should not be a hidden part of the game. |
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| Author: | walleye [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hiding your clock from your opponent |
oren wrote: Disagree. Time remaining should not be a hidden part of the game. Why not? It's up to me how I use my time. Why do I have to share that info with my opponent. |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hiding your clock from your opponent |
Given that go itself is a perfect information game, why do you want to change that regarding the timing? It seems like not showing it could invite gamesmanship just as much as showing it, and seeing how much time your opponent has left can help you know how to manage your own. In addition, it's arguably discoverable, since the time they spend is a measurable property, so why just give an advantage to those people who time their opponents themselves? |
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| Author: | oren [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hiding your clock from your opponent |
walleye wrote: Why not? It's up to me how I use my time. Why do I have to share that info with my opponent. You can choose to play that way if you find opponents who want to play that way. However, I would not want to play a game where the time remaining for my opponent was hidden. Maybe your idea will get a huge following. I'm just saying I disagree that it would be preferable to both sides having knowledge of time remaining. |
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| Author: | walleye [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hiding your clock from your opponent |
I'm just wondering why there is no such option at all. I reckon people can decide on their own whether they want to use this feature or not. |
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| Author: | oren [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hiding your clock from your opponent |
walleye wrote: I'm just wondering why there is no such option at all. I reckon people can decide on their own whether they want to use this feature or not. I think because servers first try to give you a way to play online how you play in person. In person, the option does not exist. |
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| Author: | yoyoma [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hiding your clock from your opponent |
walleye wrote: I'm just wondering why there is no such option at all. I reckon people can decide on their own whether they want to use this feature or not. Because I do not want to play on a Go server that has over 1000 options for me to wade through. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
oren wrote: I think because servers first try to give you a way to play online how you play in person. In person, the option does not exist. The option does exist in person: on the ING clocks (both versions 1 and 2): you have the option to see your opponent's clock.If you want to see your opponent's clock, you press and hold a button; as long as you hold the button down, you see your opponent's clock. As soon as you release the button, you see your own clock. So by default you only see your own clock, unless you press the button. |
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| Author: | Shaddy [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hiding your clock from your opponent |
Why's it bad if your opponent gets to launch complications as you get low on time? |
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| Author: | SmoothOper [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hiding your clock from your opponent |
Seems like a hugely bad idea. For the most part, the function of the clock is to ensure that players don't get upset waiting for the other player to play. By hiding that, you may get a little competitive advantage, however it sort of makes the purpose of having the clock less attractive in the first place. Just imagine not playing with a clock and not knowing when your opponent is going to make a move, it gets old, that is why they invented clocks in the first place. Though, I could see if you weren't efficient with time, or were one of those people that gamed the casual system of timing, taking inordinately long times just to try to get your opponent to lose interest... |
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| Author: | oren [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: The option does exist in person: on the ING clocks (both versions 1 and 2): you have the option to see your opponent's clock. If you want to see your opponent's clock, you press and hold a button; as long as you hold the button down, you see your opponent's clock. As soon as you release the button, you see your own clock. So by default you only see your own clock, unless you press the button. I know about this clock. It doesn't prevent you from knowing your opponent's time which the original poster wanted. Of course, you could go and disable that button on all ing clocks or put a big piece of cardboard on analog clocks, but it's a bit silly. No clocks by default prevent you from seeing opponent's time. |
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| Author: | DrStraw [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hiding your clock from your opponent |
It may work better in football. |
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| Author: | lobotommy [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Hiding your clock from your opponent |
My two cents. Time management is also part of the game (XIX century was the last time when it wasn't part of the game) and it is quite important skill in any time related activity. You may dislike it but it is like it is and the only option to avoid it is to play with no time settings at all. To be honest - I hate this whole idea of time in go, I don't like this whole sportification(?) / gamification in the art area, as I like to see go as an art, but it's just me. And if you too like to see go as something more than a game - then you need to remember that you are in a minority and nothing really can be done. Just deal with it and learn how to better manage your time during a game, and how to take an advantage of it when it's needed or possible. |
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| Author: | walleye [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hiding your clock from your opponent |
SmoothOper wrote: Seems like a hugely bad idea. For the most part, the function of the clock is to ensure that players don't get upset waiting for the other player to play. By hiding that, you may get a little competitive advantage, however it sort of makes the purpose of having the clock less attractive in the first place. Just imagine not playing with a clock and not knowing when your opponent is going to make a move, it gets old, that is why they invented clocks in the first place. Though, I could see if you weren't efficient with time, or were one of those people that gamed the casual system of timing, taking inordinately long times just to try to get your opponent to lose interest... Whoa! What is so hugely bad about it? When we play at a club, we never use clocks. If my opponent slows down too much or takes too long to play a move, I can just nudge him or her to play faster. I cannot do the same on the server, so a clock is necessary to ensure that the game doesn't last forever. In addition, Canadian or Capped Fischer timing ensure that a certain pace is maintained throughout the game. In my opinion, that is the main point of the clock (to limit the pace and the total length of the game). Obviously, there is no need for me to see my opponent's clock, it will do what it's supposed to do regardless of whether I'm looking at it or not. I don't know if hiding or showing your opponent's clock can give you any competitive advantage. I wasn't thinking about that at all. I just think that with the clock hidden the game will be a bit more like a casual club game. Obviously, you need to see your own clock, but that's it. |
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| Author: | walleye [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hiding your clock from your opponent |
yoyoma wrote: walleye wrote: I'm just wondering why there is no such option at all. I reckon people can decide on their own whether they want to use this feature or not. Because I do not want to play on a Go server that has over 1000 options for me to wade through. I'm struggling to discover your point. It is just one extra option and it will certainly be set to some default value. No need to wade through anything. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hiding your clock from your opponent |
walleye wrote: ... What is so hugely bad about it? ... I don't know if hiding or showing your opponent's clock can give you any competitive advantage. I wasn't thinking about that at all. I just think that with the clock hidden the game will be a bit more like a casual club game. Obviously, you need to see your own clock, but that's it. It seems to me that the least controversial way to test this would be a button that allows you to choose not to see your opponent's clock rather than one that allows you to prevent your opponent seeing your clock. I would not mind leaving that choice to each player. On the other hand, deciding to hide your clock from your opponent certainly smells like a try for an advantage. |
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| Author: | tj86430 [ Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hiding your clock from your opponent |
Normally, as long as a player can see his own clock and knows when the game has started, it is a matter of simple subtraction to "see" opponent's clock as well. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
walleye wrote: I don't really need to see my opponent's clock. there should be an option to hide your clock. oren wrote: It doesn't prevent you from knowing your opponent's time which the original poster wanted. The OP wants two, independent, features:1. Option to not see his opponent's clock. 2. Option to prevent his opponent from seeing his clock. The ING clocks provide (1), but not (2). -- by default, you do NOT see your opponent's clock. You have to decide to see it, and press a button, to see it. Otherwise you don't see it. So if you never press the button, you never see the opponent's clock. So they in fact prevent you from knowing your opponent's time by default. |
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| Author: | Shenoute [ Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hiding your clock from your opponent |
walleye wrote: oren wrote: Disagree. Time remaining should not be a hidden part of the game. Why not? It's up to me how I use my time. Why do I have to share that info with my opponent. It's up to you how you use your time but it's also up to your opponent to make use of the way you used it (besides, even if you hide your clock, he can still know how much time you've left as stated above). If you have a winning position at the end of the fuseki/chuban but spent all your time gaining it, then your opponent (if he has played faster) is totally right in making use of the fact that you have little time left. I think that if clocks are used they should be visible. The only other coherent option seems not to play with clocks. |
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