logan wrote:
It's safe to say that any player who hasn't studied the endgame is losing 10-20 points a game and doesn't even know it.
And that's at the dan level.
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| Comparison of books http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9943 |
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| Author: | leonprimrose [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Comparison of books |
I'm deciding whether or not to buy 200 Endgame Problems. I own Opening Theory Made Easy, Lessons in the Fundamentals and Tesuji. I was wondering if the problems in Tesuji translate to endgame enough to not really make 200 Endgame Problems worth buying. I looked at the sample and it looked like a lot of what is in the pages of Tesuji. Any thoughts? |
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| Author: | logan [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Comparison of books |
Yes, situations in the endgame are specialized and numerous enough to merit their own study. It's safe to say that any player who hasn't studied the endgame is losing 10-20 points a game and doesn't even know it. 200 Endgame Problems is an excellent place to begin at your level. You can followup with Get Strong at the Endgame. Further study is usually reserved for mid-dan players in collections like the Guanzi Pu (which teaches about shape exploitation in a broader context). |
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| Author: | moyoaji [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Comparison of books |
I haven't read 200 Endgame Problems, but I have read most of Tesuji, including the chapter called "Into Enemy Territory" which could be seen as endgame tesuji problems. While this chapter does exist, I would not say there is much overlap between Tesuji and endgame problems in general. I've watched some endgame problem YouTube videos and they have little to do with the contents of Tesuji. If you want to learn endgame tesuji specifically then a book like 200 Endgame Problems is probably exactly what you are looking for. Get Strong at the Endgame could also be a great option if you want an extensive book of endgame problems - I haven't read that one either, but I've heard good things. However, if you simply want a basic book on how to play the endgame that includes problems and tesuji, then perhaps The Endgame from the Elementary Go Series would be better. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Comparison of books |
logan wrote: It's safe to say that any player who hasn't studied the endgame is losing 10-20 points a game and doesn't even know it. And that's at the dan level.
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Comparison of books |
Apologies if I mentioned it before, but to give a not statistically significant example: I picked a game (which had quite a lot of yose to be played) at the start of endgame and played it against a KGS 4k when I was 2d. We then swapped colours and did it again. The difference in the score was 14 points iirc. It'd be interesting to get more data like this. |
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| Author: | Hanmanchu [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Comparison of books |
200 endgame Problems is one of my favourite books. Here is why: it teaches both endgame tesuji and endgame technique. There are a lot of endgame tesuji that one must learn to see in a game. However, there are also "standard" endgame sequences that, if you know them, help a lot. For instance how to handle a monkey jump. It is very hard to find the best answer to a monkey jump in game, in my opinion it is better to learn the technique. Here is one example for endgame tesuji from 200 endgame Problems: Black to play. Endgame technique: Black to play. I am not sure if I make sense right now? To me, it makes sense to distinguish between tesuji and technique, but I am not sure what others think... Another thing: When I started to study the endgame, I first read chapter 2 of "The Endgame", where finding the value of endgame moves is explained. Then, I read 200 Problems. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Comparison of books |
Uberdude wrote: Apologies if I mentioned it before, but to give a not statistically significant example: I picked a game (which had quite a lot of yose to be played) at the start of endgame and played it against a KGS 4k when I was 2d. We then swapped colours and did it again. The difference in the score was 14 points iirc. It'd be interesting to get more data like this. When I was a 3 dan a shodan friend had gotten his hands on some endgame replay problems published as a series in a go magazine. The idea was to replay an endgame and then compare your result with what the result should have been. I consistently gained 10 - 15 points on par, which suggests that almost half the rank difference between us was in endgame skill. Dr. Berlekamp has sponsored a couple of endgame replay tournaments in coupon go with Korean and Chinese pros. The variation in results was surprisingly large. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Comparison of books |
And I suppose Lee Sedol gained 2 points on Gu Li in the endgame in their last game. |
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| Author: | Boidhre [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Comparison of books |
leonprimrose wrote: I'm deciding whether or not to buy 200 Endgame Problems. I own Opening Theory Made Easy, Lessons in the Fundamentals and Tesuji. I was wondering if the problems in Tesuji translate to endgame enough to not really make 200 Endgame Problems worth buying. I looked at the sample and it looked like a lot of what is in the pages of Tesuji. Any thoughts? I'm finding the book very interesting and complimentary to Tesuji. They're really not covering the same ground even though there are shared tesujis between them. Sometimes in 200 Endgame problems there's more than one tesuji there but one is clearly better than the others (good for making you read past the first good result you find). |
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| Author: | gowan [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Comparison of books |
Hanmanchu wrote: I am not sure if I make sense right now? To me, it makes sense to distinguish between tesuji and technique, but I am not sure what others think... Actually, I think in Japanese tesuji means excellent technique. We usually use the word when the technique isn't obvious or is especially effective in some way.
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| Author: | gowan [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Comparison of books |
Uberdude wrote: Apologies if I mentioned it before, but to give a not statistically significant example: I picked a game (which had quite a lot of yose to be played) at the start of endgame and played it against a KGS 4k when I was 2d. We then swapped colours and did it again. The difference in the score was 14 points iirc. It'd be interesting to get more data like this. If you played a 4k this way and switched colors for a replay, wouldn't you expect the 4k to learn something from the first round and so be a better player the second time than if he played without having seen what you did? |
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| Author: | moboy78 [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Comparison of books |
Not necessarily, gowan. After all, these are kyus we're talking about.
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| Author: | moboy78 [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Comparison of books |
Not necessarily, gowan. After all, these are kyus we're talking about.
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| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
gowan wrote: If you played a 4k this way and switched colors for a replay, wouldn't you expect the 4k to learn something from the first round and so Hi gowan, I'm guessing you're an optimist (glass-half-full kind of person be a better player the second time than if he played without having seen what you did? ).
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| Author: | skydyr [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: gowan wrote: If you played a 4k this way and switched colors for a replay, wouldn't you expect the 4k to learn something from the first round and so Hi gowan, I'm guessing you're an optimist (glass-half-full kind of person be a better player the second time than if he played without having seen what you did? ).
Also, there's no making up for kiai. If you let your opponent get both miai sente moves as black, I wouldn't be shocked if you did so as white as well. |
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