Playing between 3-3 josekis

PeterPeter · #1

Playing as Black here, assuming :b1:

is playable, how should I have responded to :w2:

?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . 2 . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . 1 . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . X . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

billywoods · #2

PeterPeter wrote:

assuming

is playable

I don't like it. It looks like it does two jobs at once, but it only really half-does both. The top side is thin, and I reckon it will get split apart easily.

PeterPeter · #3

In hindsight, J17 would have been better for :b1:

.

Uberdude · #4

As billy says, :b1:

is rather thin. Something to note is the position is not symmetrical, your black group at the top left is weaker than at the top right due to white having d14 there (so it's harder to run out that side). I'm not sure what I would play instead of 1, but closer to the left than right does make sense. Also I think :w2:

should have been high at g16 to attack black more severely. In the game how to answer? Black g16 looks to make black safe enough and almost connect, but being a contact move also makes white stronger so you aren't attacking white so much. If you want to attack white then g15 looks plausible, but the shape is rather weak and if you attack too hard you might die yourself (white d14 helps in the fight).

ez4u · #5

PeterPeter wrote:

Playing as Black here, assuming :b1:

is playable, how should I have responded to :w2:

?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . 2 . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . 1 . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . X . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Ignore all the namby-pamby answers above. Automatically play 1 through 5 below... and fight! For 7 do you play "a", "b", "c" or something different? That's up to your reading and your fighting spirit. Black 1 is fine. White can not connect under after 2 and Black vastly outnumbers White on the upper side. If you don't like this fight - take up golf! :rambo:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 O O X . 2 . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . 4 3 X X . . . . 1 . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . O . . . c b . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . X . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Dragon Pie · #6

ez4u wrote:

PeterPeter wrote:

Playing as Black here, assuming :b1:

is playable, how should I have responded to :w2:

?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . 2 . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . 1 . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . X . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Ignore all the namby-pamby answers above. Automatically play 1 through 5 below... and fight! For 7 do you play "a", "b", "c" or something different? That's up to your reading and your fighting spirit. Black 1 is fine. White can not connect under after 2 and Black vastly outnumbers White on the upper side. If you don't like this fight - take up golf! :rambo:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 O O X . 2 . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . 4 3 X X . . . . 1 . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . O . . . c b . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . X . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Just curious, but what's the reasoning behind :b3:

and

?

My thought would have been to attach at a. Especially because white already has a solid position on the left and I wouldn't worry much about solidifying his territory on that side.

Kirby · #7

Dragon Pie wrote:

...

Just curious, but what's the reasoning behind :b3:

and

?

My thought would have been to attach at a. Especially because white already has a solid position on the left and I wouldn't worry much about solidifying his territory on that side.

My thought is that it gives "insurance" to the marked stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O B . O . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . O B B B . . . . X . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . X . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If you're going to attack, it can be useful if your groups involved in the attack are strong/safe. If black were to need to strengthen this group as a result of future battle wounds, he could play something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 1 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X . O . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . O X X X . . . . X . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . X . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 2 C O O X . O . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . O X X X . . . . X . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . X . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Since this group has many options for staying healthy and strong, it makes it easier to attack aggressively! :rambo:

Uberdude · #8

Looking back, I do agree my answer was rather wimpish (but by saying 1 was thin didn't mean to say it is bad, just it doesn't make points so there could be an invasion and fight). But I don't really like ez4u's pushes in the corner. They feel like aji keshi and also reduce black's liberties should he ever cut the waist of the keima at c14. Is white really going to answer differently later and what move is black afraid of white playing there he wants to stop? There is some shape weakness there for white, for example the sequence below either gives black a ko in the corner or makes the outside hane more powerful (not that I suggest this be played now as it also feels crude and bad for liberties, but it's aji ez4u lost with his pushes). This shape could well arise if black starts of by coming out with the e14 attachment in answer to white's invasion.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Ko $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 9 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 O O X . O . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . 3 4 X X . . . . X . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . O 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . 6 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . X . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc avoid ko, black gets more power on outside due to 7 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 O O X . O . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | 8 3 4 X X . . . . X . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . O 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . 7 2 O 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . X . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

ez4u · #9

Dragon Pie wrote:

ez4u wrote:

PeterPeter wrote:

Playing as Black here, assuming :b1:

is playable, how should I have responded to :w2:

?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . 2 . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . 1 . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . X . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Ignore all the namby-pamby answers above. Automatically play 1 through 5 below... and fight! For 7 do you play "a", "b", "c" or something different? That's up to your reading and your fighting spirit. Black 1 is fine. White can not connect under after 2 and Black vastly outnumbers White on the upper side. If you don't like this fight - take up golf! :rambo:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 O O X . 2 . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . 4 3 X X . . . . 1 . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . O . . . c b . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . X . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Just curious, but what's the reasoning behind :b3:

and

?

My thought would have been to attach at a. Especially because white already has a solid position on the left and I wouldn't worry much about solidifying his territory on that side.

Reasoning? Hah! I posted at 11:59 PM Tokyo time just after getting back from another Saturday 'study session', not alone this time. :blackeye:

Playing between 3-3 josekis

Who is online