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 Post subject: Invasion question
Post #1 Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:10 pm 
Dies in gote

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I have a question about an invasion. Lets suppose the board looks something like this, white has just invaded with triangle

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . Q . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


When black attaches, if white wedges there is a ladder:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W white to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The marked exchange makes the ladder good for white

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W white to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X Y . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


But what if black plays this way?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W white to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Can white get a satisfactory result from here? Or is wedging just bad?

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 Post subject: Re: Invasion question
Post #2 Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:23 am 
Oza
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One important point is to probe first and see how B plans to respond to the ladder breaker before choosing an invasion, if the invasion needs a ladder.

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 Post subject: Re: Invasion question
Post #3 Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:43 am 
Lives with ko

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See this Josekipedia page.

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 Post subject:
Post #4 Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:42 am 
Honinbo
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If the ladder is bad for W, how about just extend?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 1 . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . Q 2 . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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