Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

From this joseki, black has obtained 2 things:

1. A thick wall which faces right; and
2. Influence over the rest of the board.

(Correct?)

How exactly does black use these advantages?

I see 2 possibilities:

1. He can attack any isolated white stones along the bottom, threatening to drive them towards his wall and so kill them, or at least firmly seal them in.

2. He can confidently start a fight in the top-right corner, in the knowledge that any ladders are going to go his way.

Is that the situation in a nutshell?

Is there more to 'influence' than just making ladders work?

_________________
Regards,

Peter

Hi Peter,

There are many ways to use walls, but one way that I only learnt at around 1k was that when your opponent plays close to your wall/thickness/influence, you don't have to absolutely kill him or chase him. You can note that his move almost certainly going to be on a dame point, so it's essentially a move that has no value. You can consider ignoring the move and taking a big point elsewhere. In this way of thinking, you can think of the influence/territory exchange as an investment in the future - when your opponent eventually has to erase your wall, you get to cash in on the investment.

Yes, this analogy is correct; I was going to include it, too, but didn't get to it yet.
Again, at kyu levels, another i-word, investment ~= potential ~= the Force ~= magic.

Can you clarify this with an example? My understanding has always been that if your opponent plays close to your wall that you will get profit by attacking him. And that if you were to ignore his move, and allow him to build a base for example, that a lot of the value of your wall has been diminished. Has my understanding been wrong?

If your opponent plays too close to your wall, their stone is already blighted because it's so much easier for you to reduce or attack there. How to best take advantage of it depends on how close they are and how much space there is in other directions, and what other opportunities there are on the board. Sometimes, you can gain more somewhere else than your opponent ever will trying to limit your wall, because the wall is already alive for all practical purposes. Generally, even if you attack the stone, the points don't come from the wall itself, but appear somewhere else as a result of the wall changing the course of the fighting.

I'm confused by this as well.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . b . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . W . . a . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Here, if white plays as marked and black ignores it, white can follow up with 'a' then maybe 'b', securing a base in what should be black territory, and partly blocking off the influence of black's wall.

Edit: add quote

_________________
Regards,

Peter

Don't ignore it, just pincer.

In that case, black can play A or one space to the left himself, and white's stone is left looking pretty lifeless. It can run, but as it runs with B, black's solidifying the entire bottom right and black's wall isn't in danger.

Sorry for the confusion, I was trying to give an example where ignoring a stone placed near a wall made no sense to me.

As Thunkd says, what would be a case where you can ignore such a move?

_________________
Regards,

Peter

It's hard to think of one. Don't worry about such cases - in games, think about it, and you may in some situation realize that a pincer isn't necessary. Use your judgment.

A contrived example -- B does not have to reply to (locally):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

To come up with a guideline off the top of my head, the more thick and alive the wall is and the closer the opponent's move is to the wall, the easier it is to tenuki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O O X X X |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . X . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It's hard to give a good example. But in the above diagram, if black plays a, white has many ways to respond. He could try and attack it, and that may be correct here, but he could just ignore and regard it as a move that black is playing to limit the impact of the wall on the left. It may end being a dame point, and thus a stone of no real value. So white could consider playing something like b.

I'm not saying b is correct on this board. But it's an option for white to consider.

Here are some guidelines:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

With the wall in place, when Black plays , he not only threatens to take a large chunk of territory at the bottom, but also greatly increases the value of an approach at a. White will be hard-pressed to invade the bottom successfully without giving Black too many points along the right edge in the process as he's being chased out.

Black can do this because his wall:
a) sketches out a territorial framework;
b) is strong and difficult to attack;
c) is a wall, and White doesn't want to run smack into it.

So the wall, for the moment, is strong. Careless play can change this, and play must take place accordingly.

'Influence', to me, is linked to the function of stones. The wall in the above diagram is almost useless if White has a live group right next to it. At that point, it has lost its influence. The reason it has influence is because of the potential damage in can cause White. I view influence as damage a stone can do if used the right way. Back to the diagram!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . 4 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

One feels the stone has influence. Part of the reason is if Black approaches on this stone's side, that stone will be placed in a good spot to constrict and attack Black's group.

Stones that have influence are stones that can be a pain if your opponent tries to keep you from getting what you're after. Essentially, skillful play near your own influence stones makes the sequence look like you got two moves in a row in the process.

Last but not least in our little triad is thickness. Thickness is when you don't have to worry about a group because it is strong (absolute or relative strength). You can then carry out your plans while disregarding that group or, better yet, drive your opponent's weak stones towards it. Again, the idea behind a strong group or wall is that if your opponent has the misfortune of being driven towards it, it's like you have a Go superpower that lets you play a dozen mediocre moves at once, since the wall "suddenly" becomes a problem in close proximity.

All in all, the proof, the onus, lies on the shoulders of the person who has invested in thickness, influence and strength. The other player almost certainly has made some solid gains already, and so play must go on in a way that demonstrates the value of your investments. I personally prefer to be on the influence side of an influence-versus-territory battle. Using these things properly is something that you acquire as you try it out, and perhaps study games of pros or strong amateurs.

And as EdLee stated, it's an investment. And you don't make investments blindly, and have to plan ahead before you make such influence. On the other hand, it is somewhat like magic (even though there is a mechanical reason for its effectiveness). In that sense, you can trust that all things being equal, a strong wall, unenclosed group, or loose framework of stones, will pay dividends.

So keep using walls, frameworks and remember to make your groups strong! There lies the path to improvement.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O O X X X |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . B . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Perhaps the marked black stone is a good example? It's close to the white wall but an attack seems unlikely to be profitable. Neither player has the potential for much immediate profit in the area so it's a low priority.

I was thinking this as well.

How about these for guidelines?

If the enemy stone is very close to your wall, and weak (no base potential), you do not attack it as it is likely to get swallowed up during the course of the game and is therefore irrelevant.

If the enemy stone is distant to your wall (say, over 10 spaces away), and not already at risk, you do not attack it as it is likely to end up as dame, and thus be of little value.

If the enemy stone has potential to make a base in front of your wall, you attack it as long as doing so develops a useful moyo for you.

_________________
Regards,

Peter

These are some strange guidelines to follow. I think instead of making general rules you should try to have a better feel of what a wall allows you to do.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . W . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The first clue is you said what if White plays a and then follows up with b.

Does the black group look like it's in any trouble?
White has played 3 moves and it's still as strong as ever. So for white to get these three moves black gets three moves somewhere else for free.

Compare that to

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Here white has played only 2 moves and now black is being severely attacked.
Can you feel the difference in strength between this position where white gets 2 free moves and the other position where black got 3 free moves?

So now if we apply this knowledge that it takes 3 moves to attack the thickness:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . 6 . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . 4 . 5 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . 2 . 3 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . 5 . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

So what is happening here.

Thickness
Thickness can easily play on the other side because it is strong.
Thickness is still under no imediate threat and white has a clearly weak group
Thickness is a little nervous but still in better shape then the lone 4-4 stone.

4-4 Stone
It is normal to pincer this stone.
Now it's strange to follow with because you allow your corner to be surrounded.

Idk if these are the best examples but it's something to think about.
Imo to get better at using thickness you should get better at evaluating a group's strength.

I'd like to elaborate on this example. White has played 3 moves in this area, because he needed to limit the possibility of this wall turning into a large territorial framework. However, because black is so strong, white has to play quite a few moves to ensure that he has a viable shape. If the white stones get any points at all,they will be negligible. Black need not immediately or directly attack these stones, and can instead cash in on the 'investment' of the wall by playing big points elsewhere. Of course, he can attack the stones. It's up to him. So an additional benefit of the thickness/influence is more options. Or, put another way, although you may be behind in points, you're more likely to be control of the tempo and nature of the game.