I considered it an unspoken assumption that we weren't planning on making bad moves. There is nothing about sente or gote that makes a move good or bad. But I agree a bad move does not become good just because it is sente. I usually forgo giving advice along the lines of "Don't make a bad move." under the assumption that it should be an entirely obvious statement.

If you think your group is fine, play elsewhere.
If you think your group isn't fine, make it safe.

Play like that and don't worry about sente or gote.

That's my plan, but unfortunately not my practice.

So your advice is "always play sente moves when they're available as long as good moves to play"? I think I could be forgiven for thinking that was entirely obvious (and equally unhelpful) too. The discussion in this thread is on which sente moves are good moves to play, and which are bad. It is a surprisingly subtle question.

Yes. My advice was that if you have a (good) sente move that you should make it, but then I went on to discuss that it's sometimes hard to determine which moves are truly sente and that it requires evaluating what happens if your opponent ignores your move and how effective your followup mmove is.

I can't tell if you're being really unclear, or if you're confused. A move can be absolutely sente, something that your opponent must respond to, something that (locally) gains points, but still bad because you should hold off on playing sente.

Once you say "this is sente, and my opponent must respond", there's still questions of whether or not to play it.

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I must be confused. So if we agree that move would be a good move... and that it would be sente... why would it be bad because I "should hold off on playing sente"? I don't understand that statement.


When I consider moves, first I evaluate if it would be a good move or not... if it is not a good move I reject it and start over. After I've determined if it is a good move, I see if it is sente. If it is not I try to find another good move that is sente. I cannot imagine a situation where I would look at a move and decide whether it was sente before I tried to determine if it was a good move. If it is a bad move, I'm not going to play it, regardless of whether it is sente or not. Do other people do this?

Ko threats and aji. You should only play it when the value of the sente move makes it worth playing. Playing one point sente moves early on in the game may hurt you later.

Duly noted. If the move destroyed aji I'm not sure I would still consider it a good move, depending on the situation.
Usually I would not play a 1 point move unless there was no bigger move on the board.

I think everyone above 29 kyu can understand that this is a bad sente move, seeing as white can escape from the ladder:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Bad sente
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It is better to play the gote move of escaping from the ladder black is playing that doesn't actually work:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Good gote
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Now you might think this is a trivial, facetious example, and to some degree it is. But I'm trying to make a point.

Next consider this move, another bad sente, peeping where you can cut. Now this is a pretty obvious cutting point (particularly given the preceding moves) so maybe 20(?) kyus and above would never play such an awful move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Bad sente
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 2 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 4 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is another bad sente move (it makes a much less interesting, not to mention wasting ko threats and liberties), but I've even see single digit kyus play it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Bad sente
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And here is a bad sente that a 3/4 dan (me) played, as it destroyed some very powerful aji I had in the corner (see viewtopic.php?p=129304#p129304).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Bad sente
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O O . O X O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X O O X X O . . X . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X X X . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . |
$$ | . O X X X . O . . X . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . O . O X O . . . . . O . . O O X . X |
$$ | . O . O O X X . X X . . O . O X X X . |
$$ | . X . . O O X . . . . X X O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X O O . , . . . O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . X X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O . . . . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . X X X . . X . O . O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . O . . X X O X O O X . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | . 1 O O X X X . . O . X X X O O O O X |
$$ | . 2 O X O X O O . . O . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . O . O X X O X . X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now you might dismiss the first bad sente in a ladder example as a trivial stupidity, but perhaps to a pro who can see that corner aji at a glance my 4 dan bad sente above is almost as stupid. As you get stronger, what counts as a stupid sente (a.k.a thank you move) gets broader. Beware of sente!

Thunkd, you may also be missing something that Uberdude's examples don't emphasize: if a move is your sente, it is your privilege to play it or not. Once the move becomes globally sente, then you can throw it in at any point and expect your opponent to answer. If you have a 1 pt sente that threatens to kill a group, that is your sente at , and it will still be your sente at :b251: . If your opponent plays it while there are 6pt gote still on the board... great! He just lost 2 points. If your opponent plays it while there are 2 pt gote left... whatever! Your opponent didn't net any points, and he might even have lost one.

This is why we say "sente gains nothing". You expect both sides to get all their sente moves. You can only get ahead by playing gote moves, or taking the other guy's sente moves away from him. A sente move is like a check in your wallet.

And that check is worth 1 point in sente whether you cash it now or in 200 moves, so if at any point it turns out you wish you hadn't played it or had waited to play it, that's a pure loss.

PS - this is a way in which sente moves are different from forcing moves. A forcing move is only sente so long as it threatens to do something your opponent wants to prevent (like, preventing your group from living) - once you've done that, those moves aren't sente and your opponent will not respond.

An example.




From W96, M9 is W's sente. He waits 70 moves and plays it as a ko threat. Black needs to find another threat, and chooses one which loses a point. White wins by 0.5.

This is a difficult concept for me. Looking at the example I think maybe I see why I'm not getting it. The example you posted is a type of situation that I rarely encounter (or at least notice) where one player has a sente move and the other player has no incentive to play in the area other than preventing that sente move. Usually when I'm dealing with sente moves both players have a move which would be sente in the area. So it's a situation where if you play elsewhere your opponent will likely play here first taking their sente move.

The subclass of moves that are "sente for me but relatively uninteresting for my opponent" just isn't something that happens often for me. But having looked at your example, I certainly agree... playing that type of sente move just because you can seems like a mistake. It is a great ko threat and your opponent will almost certainly not make the move as there are much bigger things to do elsewhere. So there is no reason you need to make this move now and reasons why it might be useful to have later on.

Well, a gote move is worth playing when it gains at least twice as much as your biggest sente move on the board, generally speaking. That means that if you have a sente move that's a lot less valuable than the biggest move on the board, even if it's sente, your opponent shouldn't take gote to prevent that small value, they should take the biggest move. Assuming your level is 9k or so as your profile suggests, you are probably at the point where you will see people still play those small gote moves, and you can punish them by taking the big move they ignored for that small move. This means that you can hold off on those sente edge plays until they're near the value of whatever big middle game fight is going on, which means that the middle game is likely mostly done. Then, assuming your opponent played correctly, the sente move is still there for you to make, and it was in reserve as a ko threat before.

Because of this, that sente move can be played at anytime up to a certain point in the game, and that means you can count it as yours. It's only when your opponent takes gote to prevent it that you don't get the points. This means that the opponent's gote move gained them points, whereas your sente move was playing out something you already had.

When there are double-sente moves, moves that are sente for both sides, those are immediately big and should be played fairly early. How big they are is really a function of the threats they make, so as soon as bigger threats have died down, you should play them immediately. That said, you also need to ensure that you aren't confusing a gote move that has a sente followup with a sente move and immediately defending, because the followup is only the value of the gain in sente.

Hopefully this makes more sense?

Such moves are called "double sente" and are rare, as they depend upon the whole board. If you usually encounter such moves, that is probably an illusion.



Actually, they are common. I don't know about the "uninteresting" part, but they are reverse sente for your opponent.

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Thunkd, can you show us the games in question? If we look at all these double-sente moves in your games that you have to play before your opponent gets there first, I'll bet we'll clear it up pretty quickly.

I have hunch that you're confusing "a move with a follow-up" with "a sente move". When a move has a follow-up, most of the time you just have to accept the possibility that your opponent gets the followup as part of the value of the first move. When he has a sente followup, you just assume he gets the move and count the whole value of the follow-up as part of the original move, and don't treat it as anything special when he takes it. (Remember, sente gains nothing! ) When he has a gote follow-up, you assume that it's a coin-flip who will get it, and count half of the value of the followup as part of his first move.

Anyway, moves can have big follow-ups without being sente. The follow-up needs to actually be bigger than the original move to count as sente.

I didn't have any particular game in mind. The first example that jumps to mind is the endgame play where both sides have a wall descending to the second line and either can hane threatening to breaking into the other's territory. One side hane's, the other blocks, then both connect. Whoever plays there first gets to make the sente move.

That's entirely possible.

You don't often see similar situations where one player has a stone placed to make it gote for the encroaching player, but the other does not, leaving it sente?

Yeah, that's the classic example of a double sente move. It actually doesn't occur very often in my games, though... there's this sequence with the footsweep, but even this (a) tends to get resolved by fighting and (b) actually isn't quite symmetrical, it's much easier for Black to tenuki the first line exchange (then block at "a") than for White to do the same.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B The Footsweep
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a . 1 2 . . .
$$ | . . . . 3 W . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I do see that. But usually it's not worth playing until the endgame as it doesn't get you much and it's a good ko threat.