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A question on a joseki http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10157 |
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Author: | gostudent [ Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | A question on a joseki |
In eidogo, it is said that the following sequence is bad for white -- W6 should be in B7 instead. However, the following sequence looks very playable for white, as the black pincher stone is under attack. Could someone enlighten me any misunderstanding that I have? Thanks. |
Author: | Splatted [ Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: A question on a joseki |
In your diagram black isn't really under attack. Consider one more move. Now the white stones are threatened. White can jump out too but there's no way he can keep ahead of black on both sides. To answer your question though, consider the position without the slide which appears in this joseki. A move at b is more profitable for white than a move at a, so he wants to try and settle his stones in a way that avoids the need to play a and thus preserves the option of playing b. Although the move order is different this shows us that white's position is inefficient if he creates that shape. |
Author: | moyoaji [ Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: A question on a joseki |
When you play the slide as white in this joseki you are saying that you want the corner. To not play ![]() The problem with playing the jump is that white has a weak group coming under attack when there is no need to be weak. If you play like this, white now is alive in the corner. Black cannot really harass white. Additionally, ![]() White has modest corner potential and a hugely important ladder breaker move. If white has the ladder black should not play the original pincer move. Bringing out ![]() |
Author: | TheBigH [ Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:47 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: A question on a joseki |
...sooo, if Black wants the corner he should play ![]() ![]() |
Author: | moyoaji [ Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: A question on a joseki |
TheBigH wrote: ...sooo, if Black wants the corner he should play ![]() ![]() Correct! ![]() And from that reasoning is where we get this common joseki: I like to come up with a "story" or something to help remember the reasons behind each move in a joseki so that I don't just blindly memorize them. This is my "story" of the common 4-4 approach, small knight response joseki. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() All in all, a very peaceful joseki. |
Author: | skydyr [ Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:27 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: A question on a joseki |
An important consideration with this joseki (the one moyoaji posted) is also ![]() ![]() As an alternative: Here, black says with ![]() It follows that if black already has a stone around A or so, there's usually not much reason to play ![]() ![]() |
Author: | Uberdude [ Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:45 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: A question on a joseki |
gostudent wrote: However, the following sequence looks very playable for white, as the black pincher stone is under attack. Could someone enlighten me any misunderstanding that I have? Thanks. Black has one weak group, white two, so black is fine. But black has many other choices, one very easy one to avoid the pincer stone being attacked is: If white continues in the corner at a after blocking and white connect black extends to b to settle his group. Yes white is now alive, but it's smaller life than had he got the 3-3 point. And more advanced: Jump out in response to the pincer is locally bad for white and is not really considered joseki afaik. However, it can occasionally be good in the global situation, here is one example from Lee Sedol I saw recently. The important thing here is he made the should hit at n16 and wants to make influence. I believe he also succeeds in making f17 for c14 a bad exchange. Full game here: http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/40678 Just for reference here's Lee playing the normal joseki a few months later: http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/41275 |
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