Life In 19x19 :: Eyes more in depth for beginners?

coincidence -- I just started a thread in sudo-reply to a different Sam, about this topic
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11205

xed_over wrote:

coincidence -- I just started a thread in sudo-reply to a different Sam, about this topic
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11205

Haha nice, thx all.
Also I heard this saying of "lose your first 100 games" a few times now, I'm playing mostly on KGS but my question is when should I resign?
I often make stupid life and death mistakes especially with the board walls, if such a mistake happen should you just resign and take your lesson from it or do you still continue?

I often make stupid life and death mistakes especially with the board walls [..]

Sam wrote:

I often make stupid life and death mistakes especially with the board walls [..]

Let me please simplify that to this:

“we often make mistakes”.

Yes. And any stronger player than me … just makes better mistakes than I do. And players stronger than them … well, they make even better mistakes. Viewing it this way has taken a lot of pain from me :-D

Is this also the case with tsumego problems? I wonder if there are problems dan players have a hard time with?

I just started playing Go, read some beginner stuff but I'm really having
trouble keeping my stuff alive, I know about 2 eyes is alive and 1 eye is dead
but I'm having trouble actually creating 2 eyes in a game.

So I was wondering if their is maybe an article or book that goes more in depth on this subject?
The beginner stuff seems to just mention that "2 eyes is alive" and leave it at that.

making 2 eyes is a last resort.

Author:	Sam [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:11 am ]
Post subject:	Eyes more in depth for beginners?
I just started playing Go, read some beginner stuff but I'm really having trouble keeping my stuff alive, I know about 2 eyes is alive and 1 eye is dead but I'm having trouble actually creating 2 eyes in a game. So I was wondering if their is maybe an article or book that goes more in depth on this subject? The beginner stuff seems to just mention that "2 eyes is alive" and leave it at that.

Author:	EdLee [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:24 am ]
Post subject:
Hi Sam, 2 real eyes: alive. 1 real eye: depends ( could be dead; could also be seki ) Do you know about real eyes, false eyes, ko, and seki yet ?

Author:	CnP [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Eyes more in depth for beginners?
Perhaps you should play a few more games. Then maybe try to look back at them and get a feeling for how it went and post them on this forum for more specific suggestions. However perhaps you should worry less about making two eyes and more about trying to keep your groups connected. A group of stones that controls a large area is almost impossible to kill and should have no problem making eyes. A tiny group that's been split up from the rest of your stones is easier to kill. Getting a feeling for the key points for making eyes is something you can get from experience, doing problems and reading books on life and death, all of which is useful, however perhaps just play more games right now. If you wanted to get a good problem book, Graded Go problems for beginners volume 1 might be a good one to get.

Author:	PeterN [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Eyes more in depth for beginners?
Lose your first 100 games quickly. Then pain aversion should start kicking in and you'll begin to get the hang of making eyes On a more serious note with tsumego, goproblems.com is also a good place to try if you want to try tsumego before buying a book. PeterN

Author:	Abyssinica [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Eyes more in depth for beginners?
goproblems is really bad and I would never reccomend them to anyone.

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Eyes more in depth for beginners? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11201	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Bill Spight [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Eyes more in depth for beginners?
http://senseis.xmp.net/?BeginnerExercises

Author:	xed_over [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Eyes more in depth for beginners?
coincidence -- I just started a thread in sudo-reply to a different Sam, about this topic viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11205

Author:	Sam [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Eyes more in depth for beginners?
xed_over wrote: coincidence -- I just started a thread in sudo-reply to a different Sam, about this topic viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11205 Haha nice, thx all. Also I heard this saying of "lose your first 100 games" a few times now, I'm playing mostly on KGS but my question is when should I resign? I often make stupid life and death mistakes especially with the board walls, if such a mistake happen should you just resign and take your lesson from it or do you still continue?

Author:	Bill Spight [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Eyes more in depth for beginners?
Sam wrote: xed_over wrote: coincidence -- I just started a thread in sudo-reply to a different Sam, about this topic viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11205 Haha nice, thx all. Also I heard this saying of "lose your first 100 games" a few times now, I'm playing mostly on KGS but my question is when should I resign? I often make stupid life and death mistakes especially with the board walls, if such a mistake happen should you just resign and take your lesson from it or do you still continue? Don't resign until you understand the game well enough to know that you should. If you are playing a stronger player, you can ask them if you should resign, so that you do not waste their time. That would be polite. But the point of the saying is that, especially at first, you can learn a lot by just playing. If you resign a game, you lose the opportunity to learn by playing on. OTOH, if you resign after move 1, you can lose 100 games very quickly.

Author:	Bonobo [ Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Eyes more in depth for beginners?
Sam wrote: I often make stupid life and death mistakes especially with the board walls [..] Let me please simplify that to this: “we often make mistakes”. Yes. And any stronger player than me … just makes better mistakes than I do. And players stronger than them … well, they make even better mistakes. Viewing it this way has taken a lot of pain from me

Author:	Sam [ Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Eyes more in depth for beginners?
Bonobo wrote: Sam wrote: I often make stupid life and death mistakes especially with the board walls [..] Let me please simplify that to this: “we often make mistakes”. Yes. And any stronger player than me … just makes better mistakes than I do. And players stronger than them … well, they make even better mistakes. Viewing it this way has taken a lot of pain from me Is this also the case with tsumego problems? I wonder if there are problems dan players have a hard time with?

Author:	Uberdude [ Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Eyes more in depth for beginners?
Sam wrote: Is this also the case with tsumego problems? I wonder if there are problems dan players have a hard time with? Of course. And there are problems pros find hard too. For example: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bc $$------------ $$\|..O...X.... $$\|O...O.X.... $$\|..O...X.... $$\|......X.... $$\|XXXXXXX.... $$\|...........[/go]` And there's one problem so hard even many professionals spending thousands of hours didn't solve it, and is still possibly unsolved. Cassandra here wrote a whole book about it: http://www.dgob.de/dgoz/trmdpe/index.htm

Author:	Jrs22 [ Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Eyes more in depth for beginners?
Sam wrote: I just started playing Go, read some beginner stuff but I'm really having trouble keeping my stuff alive, I know about 2 eyes is alive and 1 eye is dead but I'm having trouble actually creating 2 eyes in a game. So I was wondering if their is maybe an article or book that goes more in depth on this subject? The beginner stuff seems to just mention that "2 eyes is alive" and leave it at that. I've been struggling with recognizing real eyes vs false eyes. I found a section in Graded Go Problems for Beginners Volume 1 concerning killing groups to be very helpful. To solve many of the problems in this section I need to identify the false eye and prevent it from becoming a real eye. Switch that around and I need to identify my false eyes so I can make them real. I'm working with the Smartgo GoBooks app on my ipad because as a rank beginner I like having each discussion of the correct answer and the incorrect alternatives to follow directly after the problem. The ebook is a bargain at only $6.99 (if you already own an apple device.)

Author:	skydyr [ Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Eyes more in depth for beginners?
As much as it's important to realize that 2 real eyes makes a group alive, it's also important to realize that making 2 eyes is a last resort. If you keep your groups connected, you never need to make eyes explicitly because they have a lot of eyespace and often in multiple areas or an area that's easy to split into multiple parts.

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Author:	EdLee [ Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:22 am ]
Post subject:
skydyr wrote: making 2 eyes is a last resort. In some cases, making 2 eyes directly is the most efficient choice. In those cases, it's not a last resort at all, but a first choice, the best move. This is one big problem with trying to give general advice. Yes, in some cases, keeping your groups connected is a good idea; in some other cases, it could be a terrible choice. It all depends.