Life In 19x19 :: 3-4, high approach and pincers

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3-4, high approach and pincers http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11792	Page 1 of 1

Author: Bki [ Wed May 06, 2015 9:59 am ]

Post subject: 3-4, high approach and pincers

I'm currently going through Invincible, and as such I am seeing a lot the Shusaku 1-3-5.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Shusaku fuseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White approach immediately, because otherwise :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c White take the last corner $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white take the last corner, black enclose, and if white approach to prevent black from making two shimari, give black the perfect pincer-extension of :b7:

.

The modern pattern, though, if I'm not mistaken, would be this :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c and may be 4-4 or anything in the corners. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A pincer doubling as an extension is still a very good double purpose move. You don't want to give it to your opponent unless you get something big in exchange. So, the implication is that neither a nor b are good as pincers. They are still extension, so the explanation is that they must allow white to get a superior result in the corner. Black can pincer further, of course, but then it can't really be called an extension anymore.

So why are the 3 space pincers inferior when white make a high approach?

Author: skydyr [ Wed May 06, 2015 10:31 am ]

Post subject: Re: 3-4, high approach and pincers

The high stone, being high, is lighter and can move into the center more easily to escape pressure. 3 space pincers are in general played for balance with the other corner as well, but they still need to have an effect on the fighting in the corner to be a proper pincer. If white plays the outside attachment, for example...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . 3 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White has the ladder, so he can cut on whichever side he prefers. The marked black stone hasn't really had an effect on this fight, so it's more single purpose. It's also a tad bit farther from the shimari in the upper right than would be considered ideal.

As for the low move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------- $$ {LN Q3 R9}[/go]

You'll notice that the white stone lies outside the line between the black stones, so they're not threatening to enclose it, and with the pincer so far away, white isn't really constrained in his action. I've played :w1:

above as an example, but it looks easy for white to handle, and black's pincer feels a bit misplaced.

One other thing to consider is that black does have a chinese formation in each case after the pincer, but he's a move behind. As a tewari analysis, if black had played a normal chinese opening, low or high, he wouldn't then take :b7:

to make a small extension in the upper right corner. He would follow up by attacking the white stone, looking to build the top and bottom as well as something on the right.

Author:	John Fairbairn [ Wed May 06, 2015 10:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 3-4, high approach and pincers
Quote: The high stone, being high, is lighter As a fuseki concept, seems like a complete non sequitur to me.

Author:	skydyr [ Wed May 06, 2015 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3-4, high approach and pincers
John Fairbairn wrote: Quote: The high stone, being high, is lighter As a fuseki concept, seems like a complete non sequitur to me. My perception is that it's easier for white to play and ignore than it is for white to do the same with the low approach. I don't mean that white can never approach low and tenuki. Do you disagree?

Author: Uberdude [ Wed May 06, 2015 1:24 pm ]

Post subject: Re: 3-4, high approach and pincers

Something to think about, compare these two:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c White take the last corner $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . 8 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c White take the last corner $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . 8 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

P.S. This is not really a beginner question.

Author:	EdLee [ Wed May 06, 2015 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: The high stone, being high, is lighter My perception is that it's easier for white to play and ignore... A high stone can be extremely heavy. A low move can be very light. The value and importance of a stone or group depend on the global, whole board context, not the simplistic distance from the edge. The height is independent of the weight. Some years ago, a 2k friend, whenever a beginner asked him what's the difference between a 3rd-line stone vs. a 4th-line stone, would reply it's a good but difficult question, how about play a few hundred games first. Which I find a good answer. These days, my companion illustration, especially for people who know about Ishida or Takao, is that it's about 100 pages difference between the 3-4 and 4-4 josekis.

Author:	Boidhre [ Wed May 06, 2015 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3-4, high approach and pincers
Also bear in mind those are no komi games. I've seen the low approach discouraged in the modern form and that pincer being mentioned, but equally I've seen some discussion about white taking the last corner becoming popular/trendy after komi was introduced. I'm not strong enough to comment on this but my speculation is the lack of komi is important to consider here when studying your first diagram.

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