Life In 19x19
http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Help Needed Scoring This Game
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13147		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  jeffb99 [ Sun May 01, 2016 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Help Needed Scoring This Game
Hi all. I could use some scoring help here. I played against the KGS bot in a 13x13 game. Pls FF to the last move. I am black. I thought my territory (not including captures and komi) was about equal to White. But when I hit "pass", the KGS bot gave ALL areas to White (like 0-198)...which didn't make sense to me. The way I see it, I have most of the right side and middle left, include one dead white stone on the 2nd line. White has 3 corners and my 8 dead stones in the lower middle.

Can someone score this for me or tell my why I lost all areas?? (Komi is 6.5) :scratch:

And a playing question...In trying to create eyes on the right, are the stones on the 1st line wasted moves? I already had a nice framework on the 3rd line but I was afraid the bot would "jump in" and take all of my stones in the upper right area. Did I need to make those 1st line moves to create eyes?

Thanks in advance for the help!!!

--Jeff



Attachments:
EasyBot13-jeffb99.sgf [2.95 KiB]
Downloaded 475 times
Author:  EdLee [ Sun May 01, 2016 9:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Author:  EdLee [ Sun May 01, 2016 9:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Jeff,

A few items to ponder:

- Always double check your post appears as you intend it to appear.
There's some problem(s) with your original SGF;
it's not displayed correctly. Did you double check the SGF appears correctly in your post after you clicked the Submit button ?

- Your SGF has many branches -- presumably from Undos --
it's a good idea to first clean up your SGF, or at least make it clear which is the intended end node.

- If I click FF, it gets to :white: 154.
But the tree shows multiple branches ( 4 at :white: 154 ),
and one branch contnues to :black: 177.

- I backed up one move, to :white: 176.
( This is why it's helpful if you first clean up the SGF,
so that it's obvious to everyone what you'd like us to examine. )
Author:  EdLee [ Sun May 01, 2016 10:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Jeff,

Here's a screenshot of the :white: 176 node:
I don't know if this is the place you want us to help score.
Attachment:
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 109.4 KiB | Viewed 7723 times ]

You (Black) had 8 points on the board.
Your dead Black stones -- bottom center -- alone are 18 points for White.
No need to count all the other points for White.
Author:  jeffb99 [ Sun May 01, 2016 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Needed Scoring This Game
Hmm...I definitely triple-checked the preview to make sure it displayed properly, and it did. It also displayed properly when I looked at it on the forum after posting. Not sure why you received an error, but this was my first SGF post so I apologize if I made an error with the file.

I specifically posted in "SGF small" to avoid displaying all of the "undo" moves. Move 154 is my end node and where my questions are.

THanks.

--Jeff
Author:  EdLee [ Sun May 01, 2016 10:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Jeff,

It's good you double checked.
It could be a browser issue: iPhone-Safari; Firefox on Windows.

Here's the screenshot of the node at :white: 154:
Attachment:
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 107.81 KiB | Viewed 7719 times ]
Black has 12 points on the board.
Your 8 dead Black stones give 16 points to White.

Sometimes, the computer is confused about counting --
so human intervention is required. You simply have to click and make sure you agree with the Life-and-Death status of every single stone on the board;
then you click 'Done'.
Author:  EdLee [ Sun May 01, 2016 10:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
jeffb99 wrote:
I thought my territory (not including captures and komi) was about equal to White.
Hi Jeff,

Let's make sure we're on the same page.
By 'territory', I'm only counting the empty intersections, not the Black or White stone 'walls'.

Re: screenshot in post 6:
Your Left group has 4 points of territory.
Your Right group has:
- 3 points of territory ( 1 point each, upper right corner );
- 5 points lower right corner ( 4 pts territory + 1 captured White stone).

Total points for Black on the board: 3+4+5 = 12 points.
Total points for Black: 12 + 16 captures = 28 points.

For White:
- 18 points center bottom ( including your 8 dead stones );
- 13 points, upper left group;
- 9 points, lower left group;
- 3 points, lower right corner.

Total for White on the board: 18+13+9+3 = 43 points.
Total points for White: 43 + 7 captures + 6.5 komi = 56.5 points.

Result: W+28.5
Author:  EdLee [ Sun May 01, 2016 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Needed Scoring This Game
jeffb99 wrote:
In trying to create eyes on the right, are the stones on the 1st line wasted moves?
Hi Jeff,

:b21: , :b27: , :b29: , :b31: -- Wasted moves.

:b45: , :b47: Wasted moves -- White can simply atari and kill you on :w48: .

:b51: Wasted move.

:b81: Wasted move.
Can you find a better move, locally, on the left ?
Study B10.
Can you capture the 3 White stones at H6 ?
Study G5.
:b83: Same question, above.

:b99: Wasted move. Can you find a better local move ?
Study G3.
:black: 101,107,113,115,117 -- Wasted moves.

( Skipping forward...)

:black: 133 Wasted move.
You had 2 variations for :black: 133 --
you were very close, but just missed it.
Please try again.
Study :black: M1 atari.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun May 01, 2016 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Needed Scoring This Game
Hi, Jeff. Welcome to go! :D

Here is the count I got. White won by 28.5.

The game losing play is B153. See the variation there. Black could have won big. :)



Good luck!
Author:  jeffb99 [ Wed May 04, 2016 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Needed Scoring This Game
Bill Spight wrote:

The game losing play is B153. See the variation there. Black could have won big. :)


Damn!! One wrong move and....bam! A winner turns into a loser. Thanks Ed and Bill for the review!!

--Jeff
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/