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The Annoying Dead http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3863 |
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Author: | Inkwolf [ Mon May 16, 2011 7:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | The Annoying Dead |
This is the 15x15 game I just played against the computer...I was black. Just thought it was of interest because, in spite of having two solid eyes, the black shape in the upper right corner is dead anyway. Didn't know that could happen. Grr.... |
Author: | JarrodCL [ Mon May 16, 2011 8:24 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Annoying Dead |
Hmm, there's no solid eyes there, unfortunately. That entire group only has one liberty, and when you take that solitary white stone, you'll still only have one liberty left...white then follows up with a single move to kill your group, as it can take that final liberty. If that white group in the upper most right corner (surrounded by your black stones) had less liberties than the black group surrounding it, you'd be in a better position and should be able to live. Because it has two liberties though, and you only have one, your group is unfortunately dead. Hope that makes sense! (And apologies if I'm telling you something you already know!) |
Author: | CnP [ Mon May 16, 2011 11:50 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Annoying Dead |
No in terms of eyes there's two eyes there as I understand the concept of eyes - not false eyes, if you took away the white stones inside it we'd say it was alive. It's just that Inkwolf assumed two eyes = unconditional life how ever many stones white plays inside and let the computer get an eye inside his big eye etc. btw Richard Hunter's Counting liberties, or his chapters in the 2nd book of Go would be the place to read a bit about this sort of thing. |
Author: | JarrodCL [ Tue May 17, 2011 12:28 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Annoying Dead |
CnP wrote: if you took away the white stones inside it we'd say it was alive. It's just that Inkwolf assumed two eyes = unconditional life how ever many stones white plays inside and let the computer get an eye inside his big eye Ahh, I see your point. My understanding of a double eye structure is one which is stable, rather than having the potential to be settled into two eyes. I don't know if there's a difference in terminology I'm not familiar with, but, that was the interpretation I was basing my explanation from. |
Author: | Numsgil [ Tue May 17, 2011 12:38 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Annoying Dead |
A better way to think about it: there's a group with one eye in a capture race vs another group with one eye. If you have "The second book of Go", it has a few chapters explaining how to read these fights out (definitely worth a read. It was a really enlightening moment when I understood how these sorts of fights work). If we collapse white's eye, it's a different type of fight altogether. In this case, no matter how many free moves white gets, he can't capture that black group. This is even more fun: |
Author: | CnP [ Tue May 17, 2011 2:16 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Annoying Dead |
Quote: A better way to think about it: there's a group with one eye in a capture race vs another group with one eye. Oh yes, thanks. Neither black or white can make take the final, shared liberty, so either a seki or black can squash white with: and seki if white plays there. ? |
Author: | robinz [ Tue May 17, 2011 2:33 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Annoying Dead |
Interesting debate. To me, this is just (as others have already said) a capturing race between two groups with 1 eye (and one which black is losing, just). It might conceivably have arisen from a position in which black did have two solid eyes, but if so, they needed to not let white get so many plays in. In particular, letting your opponent make an eye of their own inside your eye (which, in practice, seems to only ever happen in the corner, although in theory it can happen in any large enough space) makes it to all intents and purposes not an eye anymore. Easy game, go ![]() (This sensei's page has some related material:http://senseis.xmp.net/?path=EyesCollection&page=EyeInTheBelly - although in those examples white has no other eyes, so it's an eye-versus-no-eye capturing race, not an eye-vs-eye one as in your example.) |
Author: | EdLee [ Tue May 17, 2011 3:01 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Inkwolf wrote: Didn't know that could happen. Grr.... Good lesson for you, Inkwolf. If you post the entire game here,maybe people can figure out your mistake(s) that corner. ![]() |
Author: | Inkwolf [ Tue May 17, 2011 4:38 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Inkwolf wrote: Didn't know that could happen. Grr.... Good lesson for you, Inkwolf. If you post the entire game here,maybe people can figure out your mistake(s) that corner. ![]() Yes, it was a good lesson. One I'm glad I got from the computer instead of another person, because I might have called them the same names I called the computer... The game is probably too full of mistakes for anyone to narrow down just one spot where it went wrong. But if you really want to look, here's the SGF: http://home.earthlink.net/~inkwolf/TheAnnoyingDead.sgf The game as it ends there is just before I moved into the tiger's mouth from the peep at 07, and the computer made my entire formation disappear. (I hit 'undo' to figure out just what the heck had happened.) |
Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Tue May 17, 2011 6:47 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Annoying Dead |
Inkwolf wrote: Just thought it was of interest because, in spite of having two solid eyes, the black shape in the upper right corner is dead anyway. Didn't know that could happen. If this happened because white played ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Author: | EdLee [ Tue May 17, 2011 7:06 am ] |
Post subject: | |
A few shape problems: (The SGF is correct, at 15x15, but I don't know how to tell the inline editor ![]() [sgf-full](;CA[utf-8]RU[Japanese]FF[4]AP[Goban:3.2.12]SZ[15]GM[1]DT[2011-05-16]PB[Colette Bezio] BR[NR]PW[GNU Go]WR[NR]KM[6.5]HA[0]RE[W+53.5]US[Colette Bezio]MULTIGOGM[0] ;B[dl];W[cj];B[fm];W[bl];B[im];W[ej];B[lm];W[mk];B[nm];W[mh];B[me];W[kd];B[lc];W[kc] (;B[kb]C[See var.];W[jb];B[lb];W[ic];B[ec];W[lf];B[cd];W[cg];B[cf];W[bg];B[bf];W[cm] ;B[gc];W[ie];B[dm];W[cn];B[dn];W[mf] (;B[nf]LB[kb:a]C[This is the second time you make this shape -- first was (a). See var.] ;W[ng] (;B[oe]C[Bad habit. See var.];W[gd];B[le];W[ke];B[hc];W[fd];B[fc];W[hj];B[hk];W[jj] ;B[jk];W[kk];B[kl];W[ll];B[jm];W[ik];B[jl];W[nl];B[mm];W[ml];B[ee];W[gf];B[eg];W[fh] ;B[dg];W[gk];B[hl];W[hb];B[gb];W[do];B[eo];W[co];B[fn];W[ch];B[dh];W[af];B[ae];W[ag] ;B[bd];W[di];B[fg];W[gg];B[ed];W[om];B[on];W[ol];B[nn];W[hd];B[og];W[oh];B[of];W[nb] ;B[nc];W[ld];B[md];W[ga];B[fa];W[gl];B[gm];W[ha];B[ff];W[ka];B[la];W[ja]C[This connect is sente.] (;B[fe]C[You cannot tenuki. See var.];W[od]LB[oe:a][fe:b]C[This happened partly because you tenuki (b), but parly also because of the bad shape (a), go back and look at move 35.] ;B[ne];W[mb];B[mc];W[ob];B[oc];W[ma];B[ek];W[fj];B[fk];W[fl];B[el];W[gj];B[ck];W[bk] ;B[cl];W[ge];B[il];W[ij];B[eh];W[ei];B[dk];W[dj];B[ni];W[lj] (;B[];TT[]W[]TB[aa][ab][ac][ad][ba][bb][bc][be][ca][cb][cc][ce][da][db][dc][dd] [df][ea][eb][ef][em][en][fb][fo][gn][go][hm][hn][ho][io][jn][jo][km][kn][ko][ln] [lo][mn][mo][no][oo][de][in]TW[lc][le][lg][lh][li][lk][mc][md][me][mg][mi][mj][na] [nc][ci][ne][nf][nh][ni][nj][nk][oa][oc][oe][of][og][oi][oj][ok][ah][ai][aj][ak] [al][am][an][ao][bh][bi][bj][bm][bn][bo][fi][gh][gi][he][hf][hg][hh][hi][ia][ib] [id][if][ig][ih][ii][jc][nd][jd][je][jf][jg][jh][ji][kb][kf][kg][kh][ki][kj][la] [lb]) (;B[nh];W[nd]) (;B[nd];W[nh];B[na];W[od]) (;B[nd];W[nh];B[];W[]) (;B[na];W[nd]) (;B[nh];W[nd])) (;B[od])) (;B[ne]C[Just connect.])) (;B[ne])) (;B[ld];W[ke];B[dd]))[/sgf-full] |
Author: | willemien [ Tue May 17, 2011 7:41 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Annoying Dead |
daniel_the_smith wrote: Inkwolf wrote: Just thought it was of interest because, in spite of having two solid eyes, the black shape in the upper right corner is dead anyway. Didn't know that could happen. If this happened because white played ![]() ![]() ![]() Sorry it is even more complex ![]() By capturing ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Author: | EdLee [ Tue May 17, 2011 7:48 am ] |
Post subject: | |
daniel_the_smith wrote: If this happened... This is not what happened in the game. ![]() |
Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Tue May 17, 2011 8:24 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Annoying Dead |
@EdLee: Oh, haha, I sorta skipped to the end of the thread and didn't see the sgf! @willemien: Lol, I didn't notice that shape down there, of course you're right, it's not seki if black can get another liberty... |
Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Tue May 17, 2011 8:50 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Annoying Dead |
At move 98, 3 things should be setting off alarms in your brain. 1) You have no outside liberties. 2) The marked stones have horrible shape. White has the vital point which you really want for yourself. In other words, you should look at the corner and visually abstract this pattern out of the surrounding clutter: ...and it should set off an alarm. 3) He has a sente play against the lower part of your group, and you have bad shape there too: The fact that he can play 'a', making a false eye of 'b', should set off a third alarm. |
Author: | Inkwolf [ Tue May 17, 2011 11:14 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Annoying Dead |
Thanks for the advice and analysis...when I've studied another month or two I might understand more of it. ![]() |
Author: | robinz [ Tue May 17, 2011 12:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Annoying Dead |
I've just thought of another way of thinking about this, which may (or, then again, may not) be of help. (As someone who only started to play almost exactly a year ago, I still welcome the chance to be made to think more deeply about things like this, even though it must be obvious to the experts ![]() Code: An eye is a set of liberties of your group which, were your opponent to fill all of them, would cause him to leave his own stones with no liberties (unless the last liberty also happens to be the last liberty of your group, thereby killing it). From this definition, of course, it easily follows that a group with 2 (or more) eyes can never be captured, no matter how many consecutive plays your opponent gets. Also (of which the above is a corollary) that the final liberty in an eye must always be the last liberty filled (if you're trying to capture a 1-eyed group), hence all the advantages of having an eye in a capturing race. But, according to this definition, what you had in the corner there was not an eye! This is because, while one might naturally think of it as a 6-space "eye" (perhaps "pseudo-eye" would be better - note that this is completely different from a false eye), you actually only have 4 liberties there (count them!). This means that your opponent can (given enough plays - as happened here) indeed fill them all without committing suicide along the way, despite the fact you had a genuine eye elsewhere in the group. So this is why, if the opponent makes an eye inside your "eye", it isn't an eye, because it means that your opponent can fill your liberties without leaving himself with none (as he has the inside of his eye as an unfilled liberty). This post is, I realise, somewhat in the style of our resident rules authority, which can't be good, so I'll stop here ![]() Incidentally, I think this kind of thing is very easy to miss - at least at my level. I've had games where I've had a group in the corner that I'm sure is alive, and when my opponent played some stones inside still thought was seki, but I later realised (or had it pointed out to me at the end of the game), that my group is in fact dead - because I'd missed that my opponent had (or could easily make) an eye inside ![]() |
Author: | willemien [ Wed May 18, 2011 12:04 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Annoying Dead |
robinz wrote: I've just thought of another way of thinking about this, which may (or, then again, may not) be of help. (As someone who only started to play almost exactly a year ago, I still welcome the chance to be made to think more deeply about things like this, even though it must be obvious to the experts ![]() Code: An eye is a set of liberties of your group which, were your opponent to fill all of them, would cause him to leave his own stones with no liberties (unless the last liberty also happens to be the last liberty of your group, thereby killing it). From this definition, of course, it easily follows that a group with 2 (or more) eyes can never be captured, no matter how many consecutive plays your opponent gets. Also (of which the above is a corollary) that the final liberty in an eye must always be the last liberty filled (if you're trying to capture a 1-eyed group), hence all the advantages of having an eye in a capturing race. But, according to this definition, what you had in the corner there was not an eye! This is because, while one might naturally think of it as a 6-space "eye" (perhaps "pseudo-eye" would be better - note that this is completely different from a false eye), you actually only have 4 liberties there (count them!). This means that your opponent can (given enough plays - as happened here) indeed fill them all without committing suicide along the way, despite the fact you had a genuine eye elsewhere in the group. So this is why, if the opponent makes an eye inside your "eye", it isn't an eye, because it means that your opponent can fill your liberties without leaving himself with none (as he has the inside of his eye as an unfilled liberty). This post is, I realise, somewhat in the style of our resident rules authority, which can't be good, so I'll stop here ![]() Incidentally, I think this kind of thing is very easy to miss - at least at my level. I've had games where I've had a group in the corner that I'm sure is alive, and when my opponent played some stones inside still thought was seki, but I later realised (or had it pointed out to me at the end of the game), that my group is in fact dead - because I'd missed that my opponent had (or could easily make) an eye inside ![]() ![]() In most rule sets you won't see any reference to eyes at all. rules only talk about capturing, capturable and things like that. That a live groups have 2 eyes is only a strategic concept, nothing to do with rules. (but that doesn't mean that it is sometimes handy. for a good definition on eyes see: Bensons Definition Of Unconditional Life. and then notice that indeed the "eye" is indeed not a Benson "vital region". because there are empty points that are not liberties of any black chain. But do remember groups don't need to be benson alive to be alive ![]() |
Author: | robinz [ Wed May 18, 2011 9:34 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Annoying Dead |
No, I agree - I never said my post was anything about rules ![]() |
Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Wed May 18, 2011 10:09 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Annoying Dead |
willemien wrote: But do remember groups don't need to be benson alive to be alive ![]() You don't even need to be alive to be alive-- just more alive than at least one nearby enemy group... ![]() |
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