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| Best place for handicap stones http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4322 |
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| Author: | BobC [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Best place for handicap stones |
I was teaching the kids Go and used the 12 stone exercise - i.e give them 12 stones tell them to connect along the lines ( not diagonally) and maximise territory. Obviously the corners make most, then the side then the middle. I challenged a 1 Dan who wanted 8 handicap. I positioned the stones as follows. The question is (it must have been solved somewhere) is this the best arrangement of 8 stones for maximising territory and influence? Can you do better? |
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| Author: | Sevis [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
I'm your level, so I don't think I can offer much more than a different perspective on this, but I would be very happy to see this played against me by a 15 kyu. While the position does look fearsome, there is still plenty of empty space on the rest of the board, and with eight stones difference, I expect to be able to get plenty of that. In addition to all that, it feels to me like white could live in the corner, which would rather ruin the whole thing. Expected continuations: If I had to base my placement on what you posted, I think it would be something like: If I could place them wherever I wanted, and I felt like playing a cowardly game: I think my main issue with the second-to-last diagram is that it is possible to achieve from within a normal 8 stone layout, simply be tenukiing for the first four turns and playing 3-3 points. This is not a good way to play (as you shouldn't mind your opponent getting them early on, as they give you influence), and so I doubt that already having them would be much use. |
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| Author: | BobC [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
I guess he'll take a pop at the top right. The other corners I think I'll balance out by secure outward looking josekis and play tight groups. Fight for a fair share of the corners and squeeze anything ambitious against the top right... The games started... I'll keep posted.. |
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| Author: | Mike Novack [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
I would think that there would have to be a better solution than that. Looks too concentrated to me. After all, two stones are sufficient to securely enclose a corner of decent size and so eight stones could dominate the entire board. |
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| Author: | Koroviev [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
| Author: | topazg [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
My preference  Aiming at "a" and "b", and White taking "b" works well for Black, as well as White taking "c". Trying to play "c" and pincer D10 is hampered by the lack of good attack against the top left because of it's 3-3 placement, and the right hand side is a Chinese with a couple of extra ideally placed stones. |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
When I was 1k/1d, I played white against a 6k who had this formation minus one of the corners. Although I think I still won, I think this formation is grossly overpowered in a high-handicap game. It enables black to play so passively and makes it incredibly hard for white to create complications. This is what I would choose. The problem with this formation is that it is way too overconcentrated. The  stones in particular are ridiculously close to your impenetrable wall - they'd be much better occupying the top-left and bottom-right corners to maximize the use of your wall. I would also move the  stone to the 3-3 point - otherwise, it allows white to create complications by attaching at the 3-3 point. If white lives, it's a big loss for you; if he dies, white has lost nothing.At the risk of sounding too negative (I hope I don't ), I have one more problem with that placement. In Go, the slowest way to make territory is to play a move whose only purpose is to seal off your territory. That's kind of what this wall looks like. Counting only the territory inside your corner, I get to about 42 points. Meanwhile, in the four-shimari placement, black starts with about 48 points (it's hard for me to say which one gives more "influence"). But, in your diagram, white can still lay claim to two of the empty corners, whereas in the four-shimari one, white can not claim a single corner. The stones make points for you AND deny points for white. That difference is quite big.
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| Author: | Solomon [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
4 corners and 30 points...how could you possibly lose? |
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| Author: | topazg [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
Araban wrote: 4 corners and 30 points...how could you possibly lose? How can you lose with 8 stones full stop? 
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| Author: | illluck [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
I'd like this :p |
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| Author: | BobC [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
I like Arabans... A ponuki in the centre is worth 12 points... (got to add that to the other 30 points...) So to my mind its a clear winner. Strangely I wasn't looking in.. I think he'd be pretty lucky to live inside (famous last words) and I'm expecting a crack at it. It's seeing if I can exploit the wall. We shall see... |
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| Author: | Redundant [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
BobC wrote: I like Arabans... A ponuki in the centre is worth 12 points... (got to add that to the other 30 points...) So to my mind its a clear winner. Strangely I wasn't looking in.. I think he'd be pretty lucky to live inside (famous last words) and I'm expecting a crack at it. It's seeing if I can exploit the wall. We shall see... The proverb is that a ponnuki in the center is worth 30 points. The corners are just gravy. |
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| Author: | tj86430 [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
Redundant wrote: BobC wrote: I like Arabans... A ponuki in the centre is worth 12 points... (got to add that to the other 30 points...) So to my mind its a clear winner. Strangely I wasn't looking in.. I think he'd be pretty lucky to live inside (famous last words) and I'm expecting a crack at it. It's seeing if I can exploit the wall. We shall see... The proverb is that a ponnuki in the center is worth 30 points. The corners are just gravy. Why not make two ponnukis then? 
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| Author: | Sverre [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
tj86430 wrote: Why not make two ponnukis then? Two ponnukis on an empty board aren't worth 60 points because they are overconcentrated. |
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| Author: | Solomon [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
Sverre wrote: tj86430 wrote: Why not make two ponnukis then? Two ponnukis on an empty board aren't worth 60 points because they are overconcentrated. |
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| Author: | Loons [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
Optimising free placement handicap, what a fun exercise. (*P4 is a good option to continue when your opponent is really delaying entering your Chinese sometimes.) The "opening" presumably starts on top, where black should concentrate on playing naturally, with a peaceful (ie settling) bent in non-submissive options. Not those "special" black-in-high-handicap tactics. Black should be able to adhere to normal Chinese fuseki decisions for a long time. I thought about the marked stones at the marked points, but I like this more. Oh, a high microchinese on the left and the top star point could be cool. Another option worth considering is a small knight's enclosure top right. |
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| Author: | jts [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
BobC wrote: I think he'd be pretty lucky to live inside (famous last words) ... The point isn't that living inside is unlikely; it's that you're so overconcentrated, if he tries to live and fails, he hasn't lost anything. Living is unlikely, but worth nearly as many points as your corner is worth to begin with. Huge reward, no downside. It's like a stock option, if you understand how those work. |
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| Author: | Loons [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
My order of preference, and take (just by eyeballing them): |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
A think this has a nice balance: If you like Chinese, you could do something like this: Last one, great wall: |
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| Author: | Mike Novack [ Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best place for handicap stones |
topazg wrote: How can you lose with 8 stones full stop? Oh I can manage to lose even with nine stones. Depends on who is playing white. There are some rather strong players at my local go club (Western Mass). Someting important is being left out of this. Not only what might be best for black in terms of winning this game but best in terms of learning to improve (make use of existing influence, avoid passive play, etc. |
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