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How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4721		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Signifier [ Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
So, I've been stuck around 13-14 kyu for a while now, undoubtedly because I don't study enough, play enough games, play slowly and critically enough, etc. I am confident that I'll eventually build up enough understanding to "break through" this barrier, at which point I'll find another barrier, etc., and c'est la vie.

I was wondering, though, how often you have "stalled" or come to a plateau in your learning of go, and what sort of things you did to get through it?

What we'd all love, but what very few of us can get, is to have someone wise tell us exactly what we're doing wrong and set up a plan to improve that specifically. I'm sure we'd all grow much faster with such help.

Without this, though, what is the best we can do? Is it really "do more life and death," read a new book, and just keep playing? Is that what's worked for you?

Would love your thoughts.
Author:  Solomon [ Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
Twice.

1) Stuck at 5k for over 6 months (funny how then I considered that such a long time), got fed up with the game, felt I couldn't improve at this game.
How I got through it: Went to China for a Go program, not only improved but more importantly got the motivation to play again.

2) Starcraft II. Barely played a game a week, didn't go to the Go club meetings.
How I got through it: Went to China for a job internship, practically lived in the Tiandijian Go Club. Trip was much shorter than the first time, so I didn't really improve but that's fine because I got the motivation to play again.

For me, it's not so much the methodology and techniques of studying and playing that's important, but simply having the motivation and the drive.

TL;DR: China.
Author:  Kirby [ Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
I think I have been around the same rank since joining the forums here. If I knew of a sure way to break the "stall", I'd do it myself... Well, I can't say that I always give the most effort toward go problems, and I do believe that they are beneficial.

I was also stuck at 5k for awhile. In that case, I do not recall doing anything in particular to get better. It's just that, eventually, my opponents seemed weaker.
Author:  Loons [ Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
Quote:
It's just that, eventually, my opponents seemed weaker.

I think this really accurately captures the feeling of getting stronger. 5k and then 2k were my biggest barriers, I think. I also suspect that the biggest barrier was not some intangible missing skill, but motivation becoming hurt.
Author:  aurik [ Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
I have to agree with that. It's hard to tell that I'm getting any better from month to month. But a year ago I would look over a random 2k game and see many wonderful moves. Now I look over a 2k game and see many weaknesses and missed opportunities.
Author:  entropi [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
I wonder if there is anyone who was not stuck around 5k. There is something special around this rank.
Author:  daal [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
entropi wrote:
I wonder if there is anyone who was not stuck around 5k. There is something special around this rank.


Nice, then I can look forward to being stuck somewhere special instead of at 6k which sucks.
Author:  entropi [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
daal wrote:
entropi wrote:
I wonder if there is anyone who was not stuck around 5k. There is something special around this rank.


Nice, then I can look forward to being stuck somewhere special instead of at 6k which sucks.


Well, 6k is also around 5k :)
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
entropi wrote:
I wonder if there is anyone who was not stuck around 5k. There is something special around this rank.

From what I recall, I moved pretty quickly through 6, 5, and 4k before getting stuck at 3k for a while. I got through those ranks quickly by just constantly attacking the weak groups my opponents would very often seem to tenuki from. Having a teacher through this period obviously helped.
Author:  karaklis [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
Stuck at around 6-7k for two years and nothing seemed to help. For the last 12-14 months I've been having a motivation problem. Maybe lack of motivation is the real barrier to overcome.
Author:  Redundant [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
I've never had a stall in improvement that was also not directly correlated with a stall in study. I've been 1k/1d for almost six months now, but also haven't been playing enough and haven't been doing problems.
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
Redundant wrote:
I've never had a stall in improvement that was also not directly correlated with a stall in study. I've been 1k/1d for almost six months now, but also haven't been playing enough and haven't been doing problems.


Yeah, I experience the same. Every time I put an effort in becoming stronger, meaning I primarily solved a lot of Tsumego-/Tesuji-problems and played regularly, I progressed after a while. It doesn't always follow my schedule, though ^^
Author:  Marcus [ Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
Wow, reading through the responses to this post makes me feel like I don't take the game seriously enough.

Everyone has different blocks. My impression is that simply studying is not enough. You need to have an idea of where you're blocked. Like Dusk Eagle said, a teacher is invaluable for working through these tough times.

Barring that, you can try the method that I use ... forget the rank. Play. Mentally (or more formally) identify a game position or shape that you feel lost about, then play it out more in different variations in every game you can. It's a lot harder (and you develop more bad habits than you would with a teacher), but you will eventually gain enough experience to "level up".
Author:  jts [ Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
Out of curiosity, are the motivation problems people are mentioning "I don't have the motivation to plow through hundreds of tsumego" or "I don't have the motivation to play two games a day anymore"?
Author:  Loons [ Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
I think it is possible to play semi-regularly without improving (or at least improving very slowly). Though as to why these things could be different, I'm not sure. So I'd distinguish between motivation/interest in playing and motivation/changing the number near your name.
Author:  karaklis [ Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
jts wrote:
Out of curiosity, are the motivation problems people are mentioning "I don't have the motivation to plow through hundreds of tsumego" or "I don't have the motivation to play two games a day anymore"?

The motivation problem is related to playing online.
I am still doing tsumego (Graded Go Problems Vol 4, Endgame Tesuji etc.), but not on a regular base.
I am also playing on tournaments over the board.
Author:  Signifier [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
I like the responses in this thread.

As a science teacher, I am used to approaching problems with diagnostic assessments, directed lessons and summative assessments to show learning has happened. All three things seem to be missing from my study of go (which right now consists of: reading Attack & Defense and Kageyama, and doing tsumego). I study, but I don't know how my go is diseased: so I don't know the correct medicine, and I don't know how to know when I've been cured. I feel like I am wandering in the dark, with the only steady, graspable metric being my rank.

A teacher would be nice, but they are pricey. Would anyone like to play a "diagnostic game" with me and perhaps help me find out the contours of my illness? ;)
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
What is your rank? By the way, dropping Kageyama is the first step to a brighter future :P
Author:  judicata [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
I've been stuck at 3kyu for awhile. I feel like I've improved maybe 1/2 a stone over the past few months. I really haven't had time to play or study, but I can't say for sure that it would make a difference (i.e., I don't know if I'd be stuck if I had time to play and study, though I suspect I would be progressing at marginally more). This is really the first time I've felt "stalled," though I knew it was coming. At this point, I don't feel terribly frustrated or distraught, though. I'm still having fun.
Author:  Signifier [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How many times did you "stall" in your learning?
SoDesuNe, tell me what you mean about dropping Kageyama?
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