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Hoshi vs. Komoku in the fuseki
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Author:  Samura [ Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Hoshi vs. Komoku in the fuseki
Since my first game, I have been opening with the nirensei fuseki (two parallel hoshis). Then, one time I read that the hoshi stones in handicap games should be used to make influence, not territory. So today I was thinking that, as a beginner, I still don't get this "influence-thick-cosmic-moyo-style" thing, but I already get the "make territory" thing. I realized that I'm tired of play hoshi points, I already have enough of them in my handicap games. I'm tired of trying to secure territory with 4th line stones and tired of worrying the san-san invasion.

So, I decide to dump the nirensei fuseki and started to play the orthodox fuseki (3-4 low shimari + hoshi) and had good results (essentially, they are the same as when I play the nirensei). But, I want to try one step further and open with two 3-4 stones. The plan is to open with a komoku and another one at one of the marked points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


(It's possible to do this with white too if white forces a parallel fuseki on the first move.)

Now, my great worry is that with two komokus, one of them eventually will suffer an approach (kakari). I did not study josekis yet so... is it a great problem? My feeling is that it's less troublesome than a san-san invasion.

So, what is the forum's experts opinion? Double komuku would be a better opening for a beginner then the nirensei or I am asking for excessive troubles/complicatons?
Author:  Boidhre [ Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hoshi vs. Komoku in the fuseki
That's my preferred fuseki at the moment. I can't offer a whole lot of advice with it (i.e. what I do is almost certainly wrong) but there's not a whole lot out there that I could find on the fuseki, I've had to rely on GoGoD. Here's an example of the three most common continuations (bear in mind branching and how much is not in this sgf file) to give you some ideas about what happens after one basic joseki is chosen:



The most common is the attach probe to the shimari which is part of the main line but honestly I've only seen when I've played a dan level player.

Attachments:
Double komuku example.sgf [304 Bytes]
Downloaded 1302 times
Author:  Samura [ Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hoshi vs. Komoku in the fuseki
Thank you! I liked the black position after :b9:, and the 3 variations (the only difference is that I would play a 2 point extension instead of 3 point extension from the wedge at C10). Looks like against the high kakari ( :w6: ) there is nothing to worry.

Now I will do my part and study the situation against the low approach (R5 in this example). :tmbup:
Author:  Phoenix [ Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hoshi vs. Komoku in the fuseki
It's a trade-off.

Star points are indeed used to develop influence, which is something beginners have a hard time grasping. Oh the other hand, the joseki are simple.

Komoku are used to close off territory or attack an approaching stone (with a pincer). However the joseki are terrifying. :D

But really, you should be experimenting with every corner point and follow-up you can.
Author:  ez4u [ Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hoshi vs. Komoku in the fuseki
Boidhre wrote:
That's my preferred fuseki at the moment. I can't offer a whole lot of advice with it (i.e. what I do is almost certainly wrong) but there's not a whole lot out there that I could find on the fuseki, I've had to rely on GoGoD. Here's an example of the three most common continuations (bear in mind branching and how much is not in this sgf file) to give you some ideas about what happens after one basic joseki is chosen:
...
The most common is the attach probe to the shimari which is part of the main line but honestly I've only seen when I've played a dan level player.

Be careful in that even here White rather than Black decides which variation will be played. In fact if we look closely at GoGoD in recent years (I used 2005 and later), the three most common lines are:
#1 The one-space high approach where Black attaches underneath (the only choice by *Black* that is really relevant) and White attaches in the upper right.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

#2 The nadare joseki when White chooses the other side.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

#3 The distant low approach. Where Black decides how to continue next.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black should be at least mentally ready for all of these. :rambo:
Author:  Samura [ Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hoshi vs. Komoku in the fuseki
OK, I wanted to get a notion of all this and made a research of the main variations of the double komoku up to move 6. I used the Smartgo Kifu's database. There is no date restrictions, so there are some Shusaku style fusekis.

Note that the first four moves can happen in lot of ways if you regard rotations and transpositions. I used only one path for the final position after the 4th move. I put the number of games matched by the position (the database comprises of 40,275 games).

I think I can get already a taste of the opening!



Attachments:
double komoku main variations.sgf [1.32 KiB]
Downloaded 1267 times
Author:  Boidhre [ Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hoshi vs. Komoku in the fuseki
ez4u wrote:
Boidhre wrote:
That's my preferred fuseki at the moment. I can't offer a whole lot of advice with it (i.e. what I do is almost certainly wrong) but there's not a whole lot out there that I could find on the fuseki, I've had to rely on GoGoD. Here's an example of the three most common continuations (bear in mind branching and how much is not in this sgf file) to give you some ideas about what happens after one basic joseki is chosen:
...
The most common is the attach probe to the shimari which is part of the main line but honestly I've only seen when I've played a dan level player.

Be careful in that even here White rather than Black decides which variation will be played. In fact if we look closely at GoGoD in recent years (I used 2005 and later), the three most common lines are:


Thank you for the correction. :)




Samura, the fuseki where :b5: approaches the top left is the Mini/Micro Chinese fuseki usually, a very different one though on a pincer it can transpose into the double komoku fuseki we've been talking about. :)
Author:  hyperpape [ Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hoshi vs. Komoku in the fuseki
While I don't want to discourage you from studying the interesting positions in Dave's post, bear in mind that you'll rarely see any of them playing against fellow ddk players.
Author:  Samura [ Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hoshi vs. Komoku in the fuseki
Boidhre wrote:
Samura, the fuseki where :b5: approaches the top left is the Mini/Micro Chinese fuseki usually, a very different one though on a pincer it can transpose into the double komoku fuseki we've been talking about. :)


Thank you for making me aware of this, in fact this is called the Mini/SmallChineseFuseki and is played a lot and well studied. Good to know!

For record, this position has 501 games on the SmartGo Kifu's database:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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