defending this shape?

cherryhill · #1

i have heard this is a good shape to try and make early in the game so i try to accomplish it early. but sometimes it is very quickly attacked and even though i've seen it pointed out as a good shape, it seems so fragile to me as when it gets attacked i really cannot see a way to defend the shape itself. which makes me wonder whats the point of fighting for it to begin with.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . W . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can only think to continue to extend outward but i can't do it in both directions as quickly as he can escape.

otake criticizes the next shape as flat, and i trust him, obviously lol, but box-like or 3d moyo seems so dependent on being able to defend them to make use of them but i've never seen a defense illustrated. from my beginner-POV, it seems like once white makes that move, the potential is destroyed (so the move depends on your opponent not knowing what you're doing which even DDKs i play against recognize it) and the only territory you can now claim is the same as the flat shape below. i feel like i must be wrong about this but i certainly can't prove it myself due to my current limited abilities

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

jts · #2

For starters, this is a perfectly adequate reply. W's strategy appears to be to give B a floating group to target:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . W . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . 1 . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Note that by begging B to solidify, W removes corner aji.

Also, the boxy moyo works well with an extension further down the side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . 1 . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

K5 efficiently helps B control fighting to the left and to the right, whereas G4 is concerned purely with the 9 points directly under it.

illluck · #3

My instinct would be to cap rather than playing below on the third line. The response obviously depends on the actual whole board position, but in almost all cases you shouldn't be thinking about defending at all - you are much stronger in the area.

Bill Spight · #4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . W . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The Black framework is better than the White framework, but the difference is probably less than one point. Some players poo-poo such small differences in the opening, but if you lose so much, on average, in the first 50 moves (your first 25 moves), you will have lost one stone or more to your opponent.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . 1 . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . 2 . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is a common reduction and :b2:

is the typical reply,

schawipp · #5

Maybe I try some explanation of the move suggestions of Bill and jts: These defensive looking moves fulfill three different goals:

- They keep the moyo stones connected, which is more important than one might think on a beginner level (I underestimated that aspect frequently)
- They solidify the potential corner territory, i. e. they produce cash
- They give white a floating stone which can be subject to further attacks and does not gain many points

Capping is an alternative, however the given position still looks quite open. It depends on if white has some helping stones nearby. If white could break through the capping and thereby split the black stones this result would be much worse compared to the defensive connecting moves.

TheBigH · #6

Don't stress so much about letting white escape. There's three reasons why you would want to attack a weak group:

1) You want to make territory while attacking.
2) You want to build influence while attacking.
3) You want to kill the group.

Of those, #3 is by far the least important usually.

You ought to learn to welcome deep invasions, as attacking the invasion allows you to chase and harrass at will. Often you will have many choices as to how exactly to attack, which maximizes your potential to play dual purpose moves and so keep sente for a long time. I know there's a psychological blow to seeing your big moyo get invaded, it's like "AAAA! NOOOOOO! He's erasing my territory! Must kill! Kill! Kill!". But odds are, in the late middle game when there's fighting in the middle of the board, he'll squirm his way in there anyway.

EdLee · #7

You're looking at this situation locally and in isolation, which is interesting and OK.
But you also need to look at it in the context of your real game, and globally.
You have to look at not only the first (local) move, or the second,
but all the subsequent moves, to find out where you played well and otherwise.

B outnumbers W 4 to 1 -- at least locally, it's unreasonable for B to get a bad result.
If B gets a bad local result but a good global result, maybe that is OK for B --
this is one reason you have to look at the whole board, the entire game.
If B gets a bad result both locally and globally, then B has made a mistake somewhere --
either locally, globally, or both -- again, you need to look at the actual game, the whole board.

defending this shape?

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