Life In 19x19 :: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?

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Author:	logan [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?
What do you think are the top ten josekis that beginners should know? (Please provide diagrams of or links to the josekis.)

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . 6 . . . . . . 4 . .\| $$ . . . . . 2 . X . 3 .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . 5 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\|[/go]`

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . 8 . X 6 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . 5 . .\| $$ . . . . . . 4 2 1 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . 3 . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . 7 . .\|[/go]`

Author:	otenki [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?
Taisha... so they know how to avoid it On a more serious note, I think they should know at least one 5-4, 5-3, 3-3, and a bunch of 3-4, and 4-4 josekis. For 5-4: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pepcndqeqfqdpfnb For 5-3: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:qepcnd ... qbrcmdnejc For 3-3: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:qcpdqdpeobmdrfph (old pattern but still worth to study) 4-4: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfncrdqcqi Maybe also talk about posibility of pincer after the question of being able to go into the corner like: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfncrdqg No need to go into all the variations though. Maybe also go into one easy pincer: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfqhqcqdpcodrdrercqe There you can explain why the hane is bad. About 3-4, I'm not so sure, there are so many ... There is this one where I learned a lot from: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:qdodoc ... pdpeoendof Cheers, Otenki

Author:	snorri [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?
Maybe take a look at Pieter Mioch's Gentle Joseki ideas.

Author: snorri [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:06 am ]

Post subject: Re: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?

One thing I find interesting is that the BadukTV videos for 5kyu and 3kyu only feature the nirensei vs. nirensei opening. This is a really simplifying assumption, but I don't know if it's common in Korean instruction. I suppose there is some logic to it in the context of club play where one assumes they'll be playing a lot of handicap games.

In that case, the emphasis should be on 4-4 josekis. Another way to restrict repertoire is to:

1) Never play anything but 4-4 in an empty corner.
2) Choose approaches to 3-4, 5-3, and 5-4 that have fewer variations. For example, only the large knight's approach to the 3-4. It is not hard to handle the pincers. For the 5-3, just play the other 5-3. It's a simple way: miai to get the corner and the side: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:qeocqclc and for the 5-4, approach from the outside rather than invade: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:peocqclc and you have to know how to deal with the attachment: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:peocpcqc

Neither of these suggestions is my idea. I remember 1) from some random 3-4 dan on rec.games.go a long time ago. And 2) comes directly from Michael Redmond's ABCs of Attack and Defense.

But I think it depends on your goal. When limiting to 10, it's not easy. I'd want at least one tenuki joseki, maybe the double knight's approach to the 4-4, just to get the student into the idea that they don't always have to respond.

Ugh. I can't choose just 10. I think I have about 15 here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . 2 . . 4 . .| $$ . . . . . . . O . 3 .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 5 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . 7 5 . . . .| $$ . . . . 8 6 4 3 1 a .| $$ . . . . . . . O 2 9 .| $$ . . . . . . . . . 0 .| $$ . . . . . . . . b . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

(Then 'a' and 'b'

). Yeah, I know it's not really joseki, but I presume it comes with advice on when to do choose it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . 2 . . 4 . .| $$ . . . . . . . O . 3 .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 5 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

A good one to teach ladders and nets, and not always taking territory:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . 2 . . 5 . .| $$ . . . . . . . O . 3 .| $$ . . . . . . . . 6 7 .| $$ . . . . . . b 8 1 a .| $$ . . . . . . c 9 0 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 4 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Simple 3-4 idea:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . O . . .| $$ . . . . . . . , 2 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 3 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Simple 5-3 idea (if white near :b3:

, black at :w2 to treat corner and side are miai).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . 3 . . 1 . 2 . .| $$ . . . . . . . , . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . O . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Simple 5-4 idea:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . 3 . . 1 . 2 . .| $$ . . . . . . . , . . .| $$ . . . . . . . O . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Handle attachment:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . 1 2 3 . .| $$ . . . . . . . , . . .| $$ . . . . . . . O . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

3-3, far low approach:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . 2 . . O . .| $$ . . . . . . . , . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 3 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

3-3: close low approach:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . 2 . O . .| $$ . . . . . . . , . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 3 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

3-3: close low approach, teach difference between sente and gote with above. (You can also use the one-point jump extension vs. knight's move as in Joaz's example, but I think the idea of finishing a position to get sente vs. accepting open position and taking gote with more territory is a good trade-off to explain early.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . 4 . . . . O . .| $$ . . . . . . 2 , . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 3 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Teaching choice of block of white (part 1):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . 4 3 . .| $$ . . . . . . . O 5 . .| $$ . . . . . . . 6 . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 1 7 .| $$ . . . . . . 8 . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 2 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Teaching choice of block of white (part 2). Finish with 'a':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . a . 5 3 9 .| $$ . . . . . . 6 O 4 7 .| $$ . . . . . . . . 0 8 .| $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 2 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Teaching first joseki mistake. A fun one to show. The punishment is left as an exercise.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . 6 5 3 . .| $$ . . . . . . . O 4 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 2 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Double approach:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . 3 . . 5 . .| $$ . . . . . . . O . . .| $$ . . . . . . 4 . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Maybe you can cut out the 3-3 ones. The move is not that popular and you can just tenuki and see if white can develop.

If adding, some of the other 3-3 invasion variations are important, such as handling the white double hane.

Author: snorri [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:13 am ]

Post subject: Re: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?

I also like this one for teaching pushing battles / importance of getting ahead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . 5 . 1 . O . .| $$ . . . . . 3 2 4 . . .| $$ . . . a 7 6 0 . . . .| $$ . . . . 8 9 . . . . .| $$ . . . . b . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

And if I could pick one side joseki, maybe this diagonal haengma to develop out and separate. When I was first shown that this prevents a white connection at 'a', I thought go was so beautiful.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . , . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . O . .| $$ . . . . . . 1 . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . X a . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . . O . . .| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Author:	EdLee [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:17 am ]
Post subject:
snorri wrote: ...joseki mistake. The punishment... Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B $$----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . 6 5 3 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . O 4 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . 2 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\|[/go]` IMO, it's questionable to use the term "mistake" for -- "variation" may be better. "The punishment" is also dubious -- both for the term "punishment" and for the definitive "the" -- there are many variations here (some complicated).

Author:	DrStraw [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?
I am surprised that no one mentioned the 4-4 cap of sansan.

Author:	otenki [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re:
EdLee wrote: snorri wrote: ...joseki mistake. The punishment... Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B $$----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . 6 5 3 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . O 4 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . 2 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\|[/go]` IMO, it's questionable to use the term "mistake" for -- "variation" may be better. "The punishment" is also dubious -- both for the term "punishment" and for the definitive "the" -- there are many variations here (some complicated). Can you give an example? The only variations I can find are all localy bad for the player who haned. Cheers, Otenki

Author:	judicata [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
otenki wrote: EdLee wrote: snorri wrote: ...joseki mistake. The punishment... Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B $$----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . 6 5 3 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . O 4 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . 2 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\|[/go]` IMO, it's questionable to use the term "mistake" for -- "variation" may be better. "The punishment" is also dubious -- both for the term "punishment" and for the definitive "the" -- there are many variations here (some complicated). Can you give an example? The only variations I can find are all localy bad for the player who haned. Cheers, Otenki I think this can safely be called a mistake, and I've seen and heard it characterized as such by professionals. Unless, of course, you're applying a different definition of "mistake" than is commonly used. Put another way, if this isn't a joseki mistake, I'm curious to know what "real" joseki mistakes are that don't result in groups dying. There are two common ways to "punish" that I know of, the most common (in my experience) being black descending at below. But I like this one: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B $$----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . 5 O X X 3 .\| $$ . . . . . . . O O 1 .\| $$ . . . . . . . . 4 2 .\| $$ . . . . . . . . X . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . O . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\|[/go]`

Author:	tchan001 [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
otenki wrote: EdLee wrote: snorri wrote: ...joseki mistake. The punishment... Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B $$----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . 6 5 3 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . O 4 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . 2 . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . . .\|[/go]` IMO, it's questionable to use the term "mistake" for -- "variation" may be better. "The punishment" is also dubious -- both for the term "punishment" and for the definitive "the" -- there are many variations here (some complicated). Can you give an example? The only variations I can find are all localy bad for the player who haned. Cheers, Otenki Look at this old thread viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6155

Author:	EdLee [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:
judicata wrote: I think this can safely be called a mistake, and I've seen and heard it characterized as such by professionals. I've heard the opposite from a pro, that it's questionable to call the hane a mistake, that perhaps "variation" is better. Takao spent about half a page on the hane. Excerpts: Quote: Playing a hane at 1 instead of extending... diverges from joseki. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B $$--------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . 1 O O 2 .\| $$ , . . . . . X X . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . O . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . X . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . .\|[/go]` Quote: One way of punishing Black for his mistake is to descend at 2. Quote: On rare occasions, Black may knowingly hane at 1 in the previous diagram, then answer White's descent by connecting at 1. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B $$--------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . X O O O .\| $$ , . . . . 1 X X 2 .\| $$ . . . . . . . 3 4 .\| $$ . . . . . . 5 O 6 .\| $$ . . . . . . 7 . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . X . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . .\|[/go]` Quote: White gets a slightly favorable result. Quote: ...this is playable for White. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$--------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . 6 . . . .\| $$ . . . . 5 Y O O 3 .\| $$ , . . . . 7 X X 1 .\| $$ . . . . . . . 4 2 .\| $$ . . . . . . . O . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . X . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . .\|[/go]` Quote: good for White Quote: ...the result is not bad for [White]. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B $$--------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . X O O O .\| $$ , . . . . 1 X X O .\| $$ . . . . . . . . 2 .\| $$ . . . . . . . O . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . .\| $$ . . . . . . . X . .\| $$ . . . . . . . . . .\|[/go]` A database search on 50,744 games returned 4 pro games ("rare occasions"; 1986-2007) with the hane, 3 of which played by Cho Chikun 9p, including one very early in the opening (on ). (Compared to 1,890 games with the joseki extend.)

Author:	judicata [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
EdLee wrote: judicata wrote: I think this can safely be called a mistake, and I've seen and heard it characterized as such by professionals. I've heard the opposite from a pro, that it's questionable to call the hane a mistake, that perhaps "variation" is better. I don't doubt you at all. I suspect those pros have a different understanding of the term "mistake." Though it is possible that they have a different judgment about the position (which would be interesting). Of course, almost any normally "bad" move can be a good move in the right situation (as can almost any normally "good" move be a "bad" move in the wrong position). Where to draw the line at "mistake" isn't clear cut, but I question whether the term remains useful if it excludes moves like this. (You could argue that the word "mistake" is never useful, but I don't think that gives people enough credit--rather, players should realize that "mistake" implies "generally" and that, most likely, there are exceptions.)

Author:	snorri [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
judicata wrote: EdLee wrote: judicata wrote: I think this can safely be called a mistake, and I've seen and heard it characterized as such by professionals. I've heard the opposite from a pro, that it's questionable to call the hane a mistake, that perhaps "variation" is better. I don't doubt you at all. I suspect those pros have a different understanding of the term "mistake." Though it is possible that they have a different judgment about the position (which would be interesting). Of course, almost any normally "bad" move can be a good move in the right situation (as can almost any normally "good" move be a "bad" move in the wrong position). Where to draw the line at "mistake" isn't clear cut, but I question whether the term remains useful if it excludes moves like this. (You could argue that the word "mistake" is never useful, but I don't think that gives people enough credit--rather, players should realize that "mistake" implies "generally" and that, most likely, there are exceptions.) Okay, that example was more deeply controversial than I would have expected, so maybe shouldn't be considered in a short list. Any other favorites for common mistakes? I'm not sure I remember the normal ways of flubbing the 3-3 invasion under 4-4, but I think there are some.

Author:	Boidhre [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
snorri wrote: Okay, that example was more deeply controversial than I would have expected, so maybe shouldn't be considered in a short list. Any other favorites for common mistakes? I'm not sure I remember the normal ways of flubbing the 3-3 invasion under 4-4, but I think there are some. Thinking this is the only move/normal move in this situation because it looks similar to another corner situation: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B $$ , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . 1 . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ , . . . . . O . 3 . \| $$ . . . 2 . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ --------------------+[/go]` isn't necessarily a mistake but not considering 3,3 as an option here is usually.

Author:	snorri [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?
DrStraw wrote: I am surprised that no one mentioned the 4-4 cap of sansan. Strongly considered it, but there are a few variations and the classic one contains moves that are a little harder to motivate. Is this the one you had in mind? Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W shoulder hit $$ -------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . 6 . . . . $$ \| . . X 2 a . . . . . $$ \| . . . 1 3 . . 7 . . $$ \| . 4 . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . 5 . . . . . .[/go]` There is also some controversy on this one, from Josekipedia: Old pattern. Not really Joseki anymore, because Black's corner is too good compared to what White can get out of his wall. Sources Alexandre Dinerchtein - KGS+ Lecture 05.06.2010 In my GoGoD it does indeed seem to have been last played in 2009. at 'a' or tenuki still have same games. The whole combo peaked in the mid-70s, because of course that means nothing as one's opponents might still play it and it has conceptual value. Maybe it should be paired with the 3-3 invasion under the 4-4 to show the difference sente makes in such a position?

Author:	amnal [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?
snorri wrote: There is also some controversy on this one... Perhaps the biggest point here is that amateurs love to play it because they vaguely remember the idea, but it's relatively rare that it's necessarily a good 'joseki' to play. White is actually a bit thin and floaty, which might be fine if it helps a global position or reduces a moyo black was building, but doesn't have a lot of value on its own - it could even come under attack! In real games, white will often do better to consider the various approaches.

Author:	snorri [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?
amnal wrote: snorri wrote: There is also some controversy on this one... Perhaps the biggest point here is that amateurs love to play it because they vaguely remember the idea, but it's relatively rare that it's necessarily a good 'joseki' to play. White is actually a bit thin and floaty, which might be fine if it helps a global position or reduces a moyo black was building, but doesn't have a lot of value on its own - it could even come under attack! In real games, white will often do better to consider the various approaches. I was given the same advice by my teacher. So, yeah, put it in a better context: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W reduce $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Of course, because the position for black above is not ideal development, professional examples aren't common and the joseki shown isn't necessarily the choice for both black and white. At this point it is not such much a joseki as timing advice...

Author:	illluck [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Top 10 Josekis Beginners Should Know?
On that 44 pincer hane, I've heard it called bad by several pros in lectures.

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