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Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10284		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  eyecatcher [ Mon May 12, 2014 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
Hi, asking again the famous "GoStyle Web App" http://gostyle.j2m.cz/ about the "style" of my KGS account i got, same as last time, the result: pretty much agressive AND pretty much territorial.

First, i know this WebApp can`t tell me much about my games, it´s just, more or less, fun!

But my question ist not about my stlye or the app... more:

Can you name any professional players about one can definitley say: "A territorial player" AND at the same time " a very agressive player" ?! I know about some pros and i`m not really a 100% newbie here (more 75 %) ;-) ... but this question arised in my thoughts and i really would like to know which pros are like that (Kato Masao? Sakata Eio? Chen Yaoe? ... i have no idea :mrgreen: )

Would be very nice if one of you 20% newbies would share some thoughts about this :clap: ?!

(Please excuse me, if my english ist not really good...)
Author:  skydyr [ Mon May 12, 2014 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
Cho Chikun and Kobayashi Koichi may fit the bill at certain time periods.
Author:  eyecatcher [ Mon May 12, 2014 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
skydyr wrote:
Cho Chikun and Kobayashi Koichi may fit the bill at certain time periods.


Thank`s! A never thought of Cho being labled "agressive" but, yet i did not looked much in to his games... so i will see, and for Kobayashi, that seems to make much sense, yeah... thnx! :study:


But any other names here?! What about Sakata Eio? His style is territorial isn`t it? Not "agressive"? :batman:
Author:  skydyr [ Mon May 12, 2014 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
As far as I know, Cho tends to start out very territorial and then erases everything else. I'm not sure if that's exactly what you're looking for, though.
Author:  gowan [ Mon May 12, 2014 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
All pros try to play severe moves, moves that put maximum reasonble pressure on the opponent. Would you call such moves agressive? A severe move could put pressure on the opponent by claiming a territorial lead. One of the problems with your question is that the terms aren't defined well. Almost all pros "make territory whuile attacking" Are they agressive and also territorial?
Author:  Abyssinica [ Mon May 12, 2014 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
Let's not use the term aggressive and instead use, "Relentlessly reasonable".
Author:  eyecatcher [ Tue May 13, 2014 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
gowan wrote:
All pros try to play severe moves, moves that put maximum reasonble pressure on the opponent. Would you call such moves agressive? A severe move could put pressure on the opponent by claiming a territorial lead. One of the problems with your question is that the terms aren't defined well. Almost all pros "make territory whuile attacking" Are they agressive and also territorial?


Mhmmm, maybe it`s because i`m still kind of a beginner when it comes to the understanding of pro games and pro styles ... but i thought...

i mean...

there are books like : "Master Play - The Fighting Style of Kato Masao & Seo Bong Soo"
and: "Master Play: The Territorial Styles of Kitani & Cho"

One speaks about players like "Rui Nawei" and "Takemiya Masaki" as being fighters and agressive ...
and about others there is the word of "they play a territorial style" ...

So maybe my question is more about: What this really means...

Sadly my english is not good enough to make my thoughts clear at the moment... but yes, i know what you mean when you say "all pros make territory while attacking" ... but somehow, because there are these well known terms "territorial style" and "fighting style" i thought my question would be still valid and maybe only a few players names would fit as a answer (both: fighting stlye and territorial style)

(One last thing: i allways thought you can`t do both: playing a fighting style AND a territorial style)
Author:  RBerenguel [ Tue May 13, 2014 2:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
eyecatcher wrote:
gowan wrote:
All pros try to play severe moves, moves that put maximum reasonble pressure on the opponent. Would you call such moves agressive? A severe move could put pressure on the opponent by claiming a territorial lead. One of the problems with your question is that the terms aren't defined well. Almost all pros "make territory whuile attacking" Are they agressive and also territorial?


Mhmmm, maybe it`s because i`m still kind of a beginner when it comes to the understanding of pro games and pro styles ... but i thought...

i mean...

there are books like : "Master Play - The Fighting Style of Kato Masao & Seo Bong Soo"
and: "Master Play: The Territorial Styles of Kitani & Cho"

One speaks about players like "Rui Nawei" and "Takemiya Masaki" as being fighters and agressive ...
and about others there is the word of "they play a territorial style" ...

So maybe my question is more about: What this really means...

Sadly my english is not good enough to make my thoughts clear at the moment... but yes, i know what you mean when you say "all pros make territory while attacking" ... but somehow, because there are these well known terms "territorial style" and "fighting style" i thought my question would be still valid and maybe only a few players names would fit as a answer (both: fighting stlye and territorial style)

(One last thing: i allways thought you can`t do both: playing a fighting style AND a territorial style)


My note about Takemiya being aggressive was only mild-joking. He won't be classified as aggressive in the usual sense.
Author:  eyecatcher [ Tue May 13, 2014 3:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
RBerenguel wrote:
eyecatcher wrote:
gowan wrote:
All pros try to play severe moves, moves that put maximum reasonble pressure on the opponent. Would you call such moves agressive? A severe move could put pressure on the opponent by claiming a territorial lead. One of the problems with your question is that the terms aren't defined well. Almost all pros "make territory whuile attacking" Are they agressive and also territorial?


Mhmmm, maybe it`s because i`m still kind of a beginner when it comes to the understanding of pro games and pro styles ... but i thought...

i mean...

there are books like : "Master Play - The Fighting Style of Kato Masao & Seo Bong Soo"
and: "Master Play: The Territorial Styles of Kitani & Cho"

One speaks about players like "Rui Nawei" and "Takemiya Masaki" as being fighters and agressive ...
and about others there is the word of "they play a territorial style" ...

So maybe my question is more about: What this really means...

Sadly my english is not good enough to make my thoughts clear at the moment... but yes, i know what you mean when you say "all pros make territory while attacking" ... but somehow, because there are these well known terms "territorial style" and "fighting style" i thought my question would be still valid and maybe only a few players names would fit as a answer (both: fighting stlye and territorial style)

(One last thing: i allways thought you can`t do both: playing a fighting style AND a territorial style)


My note about Takemiya being aggressive was only mild-joking. He won't be classified as aggressive in the usual sense.


I think you must be right, but i found this interesting... what Takemia says about his teacher ... and of course his style must be agressive any how, because he usually have to kill all the invaders of his center moyo no?! But this is not the regular use of "fighting style" (like Lee Sedol or Rui Nawei) ?! :scratch:

(Edit: uups, the picture looks a big "huge" but i guess that`s not a big problem :mrgreen: )

Attachments:
File comment: From the book "imagination of a go master" by Takemia Masaki
Foto.JPG
Foto.JPG [ 427.72 KiB | Viewed 9284 times ]
Author:  SmoothOper [ Tue May 13, 2014 4:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
Cho Chikun likes to build territory, but he builds it with aggressive approach moves with sente so as to lay out the board the way he likes it. He does't like large scale joseki though, and often he chikens out on those.

There are territorial players that are more about Moyos and big Gote moves that tenuki often, maybe Seigen and or Takemiya, I'm not as familiar with these players.
Author:  Knotwilg [ Tue May 13, 2014 5:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
I would think Lee Sedol classifies. He's known for being world class in fighting. He prefers a game where he takes early territory and then fights to survive with a weak group. He doesn't prefer to be the attacker who needs to overcome an early disadvantage by bullying a weak group. However, his games are never peaceful and he will prefer a fight over a smooth transition from opening to endgame. He will use the fight to move from an equal opening into a chaotic middle game and create a territorial advantage while harassing the opponent's group.

In contrast, his current major opponent Gu Li is also a strong fighter but doesn't cherish early or middle game territory as much. He will rather try to be on the advantage in terms of overall thickness and attack for any kind of profit. That may include a ko fight in which his thickness gives him the advantage.

I don't think of Takemiya as either territorial or aggressive. He'd force the opponent into a situation where his own influence accumulates to a moyo of considerable depth, in a way that seemed inevitable to the opponent. Then the opponent had to invade and he was almost compelled to kill. There was more a natural flow and inevitability to his games.
Author:  eyecatcher [ Tue May 13, 2014 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
Thank you all for the insight so far. It is interesting to hear about Chos style... How he plays his territorial style with sente moves (although that should be obvious maybe...) will defenitly look in to his games.

Knotwilg special thanks to you for explaining the differences in the styles of Gu Li / Lee Sedol ... so what Lee Sedol does... i will try that :-D hahaha ... no serious, that was very much interesting, will think about that when i replay one of his games again.
Author:  xed_over [ Tue May 13, 2014 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
Knotwilg wrote:
I would think Lee Sedol classifies. He's known for being world class in fighting. He prefers a game where he takes early territory and then fights to survive with a weak group.

In contrast, his current major opponent Gu Li is also a strong fighter but doesn't cherish early or middle game territory as much.

I would not have guessed this from watching their 4th jubango game. I would have guessed the other way around.
Author:  Knotwilg [ Thu May 15, 2014 4:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
Indeed, their fourth game is not representative for their history as opponents. I think they are now playing mind games just as much as playing Go.

In the preliminary analysis, most amateurs agreed that the result up to 27 is so favorable for Black that even a pro who isn't on the territorial side would be happy to take it. However, from the pro analysis it seemed the result was even, with Lee Sedol establishing a thick group neutralizing the centre and reducing the bottom.

Eventually the game became a (superficially) peaceful one, moving into the endgame without any major fighting going on. The only interesting moments were White's counter to B63 (which tried to attack while making territory but failed) and then White's slackish move at 76, where Lee failed to harrass Black's top group for profit.

We can hence speculate that Lee Sedol felt not at all comforable in the position of being behind on territory and having to catch up through exploiting thickness. Of course, these guys are so strong they know how to do that, but maybe not against an equally strong opponent.

Why this switching of seats came about is equally food for speculation. The choice of the bottom joseki seems to be more White's than Black's. So I think that Lee is trying harder than Gu and that Gu will let the board be of his service rather than try to outsmart his opponent.

Probably speculative nonsense, but fun nonetheless!
Author:  SmoothOper [ Thu May 15, 2014 4:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
I agree about Lee being territorial, but it is a bit extreme in the sense that his opponents groups often only have 1 point. Most pros have mastered multiple styles, and there are are countless examples of player A playing with a style they don't prefer, maybe just for practice, or the situation calls for it.
Author:  Claint [ Mon May 26, 2014 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
I would vote Chen Yaoye, especially his games against Korean fighter players like Choi Cheolhan. In fact he has a very high win ratio against Choi.

Here is a favorite of mine:
http://gogameguru.com/go-commentary-chen-yaoye-vs-choi-cheolhan-16th-china-korea-tengen/

He starts a big fight with move 27.
Author:  eyecatcher [ Mon May 26, 2014 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any professionals which are "agressive & territorial" ?!
Yes, finally i think your vote for Chen Yaoye is :tmbup:
Exactly for such a tip i was looking for, thnx.
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