I'm trying to understand the reasons behind every Joseki move I play, and I've stumbled upon one in the standard Chinese opening approach pattern that I don't understand. Why does White respond at below? Every time I play I'm afraid White will not respond this way and I'll have no idea how to follow up.

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[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . a . . . |
$$ . . O b O . . |
$$ . X 1 2 . . . |
$$ . . . O . . . |
$$ . X . , O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]

This seems a little meek for White because it still leaves the exchange Black a, White b and it's not clear to me what Black's follow-up is if White doesn't defend here.

I guess that if White totally Tenukis then White has a good follow-up with the wedge?

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[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . b . . . |
$$ . . O 3 O . . |
$$ . X 1 a . . . |
$$ . . . O . . . |
$$ . X . , O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]

Then neither a nor b look good for White. But what if White connects solidly? (maybe getting the move at a first)

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[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X a . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O 2 O . . |
$$ . X 1 . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . . |
$$ . X . , O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]

This push doesn't look very good:

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[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O 2 O . . |
$$ . X 1 3 4 . . |
$$ . . . O . . . |
$$ . X . , O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]

Is there some better way to exploit this weakness?

Hm, after looking over this a bit more I see that maybe is a very strong attack:

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[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . a . |
$$ . . O 2 O . . |
$$ . X 1 4 3 5 . |
$$ . . . O . . . |
$$ . X . , O . b |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]

This looks at both a and b as miai for connecting out, right?

This does look pretty bad for White.

Hm, well how about if White pushes at first. Now that jump into Black a doesn't look quite so good.

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[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , 5 3 . |
$$ . . . . X 2 . |
$$ . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . O 6 O . . |
$$ . X 1 . a . . |
$$ . . . O . . . |
$$ . X . , O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]

Is this still good for Black? Or should Black have played differently, for example at ?

This seems to make a pretty bad shape for Black.

This white shape is not locally alive. Black should not try to kill it because it is not surrounded but if in later fighting white loses the option to escape then black could kill it. In the joseki shape white is 100% alive so can play more freely elsewhere. For example black n8 is not sente so if black played that move to develop the centre white could reduce the centre but with your shape white might need to answer locally so then black would have sente to play another move to develop the centre.

So one reason to block the push is to maximise eye space. Another is to take a liberty from p6 which makes pushing out at o7 more powerful (black can't double hane, and even hane is dangerous with the cut).

Hi Shawn,

In addition, two things about (a) and (b). We look at (a) first:
If B simply plays (a) = directly, then locally W is not alive.
This way, B does not reduce his own libs,
does not make a bad shape for himself,
and does not hurt his own outside stones.
Jumping in with is a bad idea in this case.

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[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . B . |
$$ . . O . O . . |
$$ . X . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . . |
$$ . X . , O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]

Hi Shawn,

The other thing is B (b) does not work:
W can resist with either W (c) or W (d).
To connect back, the shape is either kosumi B (c) or B (d).

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[go]$$B tenuki
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O b O . . |
$$ . . . . . X 1 3 a . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . X . . . X . , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

If White tenukies, Black should simply push making miai of 'a' and 'b'.

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[go]$$B tenuki
$$ . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . Y . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 4 6 . . |
$$ . . . . . . O 3 O . . |
$$ . . . . . X 1 5 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . X . . . X . , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

It's bad to wedge as Black's stone can become damaged and White gain's more options to settle.

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[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . b X a . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . X . . . X . , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

White 'a' and 'b' are miai. But Black prefers White 'a' over 'b' for the Low-Chinese opening.

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[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . 3 a . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 2 X d . |
$$ . . . . b . . c . 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . g . |
$$ . X . . . X . f O . . |
$$ . . . e . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

If , then between 'a' and 'b' White either settles -- better than if Black had played 'c' and allowed White 'd' -- or moves out into the center taking Black's key expanding point for his bottom moyo around 'b' and exacerbating White's invasion at 'e'. Black 'f' for 'g' may no longer be sente when the time comes. Black's choice of which direction to attack White becomes worse.

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[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . . 5 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . O 6 O . . |
$$ . . . . . X 1 a . b . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . c . |
$$ . X . . . X . , O . . |
$$ . . . d . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

If rather than 'a', then White 'b' or 'c' later makes worse eye potential, leaves more bad aji, and gives Black's stones an extra liberty. The liberty could become crucial in the variations following White's invasion at 'd'.

I hope this answers your questions.

Another thought about the attach of 2: it allows black to trade like this: cutting off the marked stone and building powerful centre thickness in exchange for letting white into the right side. In the chinese opening probably this is good for white if black was trying to make points at the top right, but it gives black a choice. If white thought the centre wasn't important why did he play the marked stone?

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[go]$$B (7 onwards just for example)
$$ . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . . 6 8 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 7 X 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . W 5 O . . |
$$ . . . . . X 1 3 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . X . . . X . , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

If you prefer the right, white can choose this one. I seem to recall Rui Naiewei played it a few times.

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[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . 2 X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . 1 . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . . |
$$ . X . , O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]

Hre is another idea for black if white tenukis:

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[go]$$B shut white in
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . . 7 5 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X 4 . |
$$ . . . . . 3 . 1 . 6 . |
$$ . . . . . . O 2 O . . |
$$ . . . . . X X . . a . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . X . . . X . , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Black can shut white in. This may well be sente - white will need to read a bit to see if another move is needed. (I would be quite nervous in white's place about a black attack at a.)

Black could also play 3 to take white's eyes away:

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[go]$$B Attack!!!
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . O 2 O . . |
$$ . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . X . . . X . , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

White's group is very weak. This line is unlikely to be a fun game for him. So maybe white will try this:

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[go]$$B Variation
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . X . . . X . , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Black then has various options e.g.

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[go]$$B Hairy
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 4 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . O . O 5 . |
$$ . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . X . . . X . , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

The move above may be possible - it depends on the surrounding areas.It's difficulat to read this one out, but it feels that it may be good for black. For example:

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[go]$$W Hairy line again
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . 8 . 4 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . 6 3 X O . |
$$ . . . . 9 . 7 X O X . |
$$ . . . . . . O 5 O X . |
$$ . . . . . X X . . 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . X . . . X . , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

White needs to play at 5 to keep his group together. Then black 6 is quite severe- white gets a weak group sandwiched between strong black groups.

Thanks for the feedback everyone!



Oh right! I remember now that that was one of the first few problems in "The Art of Connecting Stones". Now I just need to remember it during games.



This does look much better and calmer.

Thanks Uberdude, I'm trying to read out why this shape is not locally alive. But I cannot figure out how to kill. Here is the best that I've gotten:

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[go]$$Bc White gets two eyes.
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X X . |
$$ . . . . X O 7 |
$$ . . . . . O 8 |
$$ . . O O O 9 . |
$$ . X X 1 2 . 6 |
$$ . . . O . 4 3 |
$$ . X . , O 0 5 |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]

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[go]$$Bc White also lives.
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X X . |
$$ . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . O . |
$$ . . O O O 8 . |
$$ . X X 1 2 . 6 |
$$ . . . O . 4 3 |
$$ . X . , O 5 7 |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]

I am trying to follow the philosophy of reducing from the outside first, but maybe this is a case where you need to hit a vital point inside first?

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[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X X . |
$$ . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . O . |
$$ . . O O O . . |
$$ . X X 3 4 1 . |
$$ . . . O 6 5 9 |
$$ . X . , O . 8 |
$$ . . . X O 2 7 |
$$ . . . . X X 0 |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]

Which does look pretty dead for White, but I'm not convinced all those moves should have been forcing. Is there a better way?