Life In 19x19 :: my experience playing with koreans on wbaduk

pre-dan level,
wbaduk koreans play like lions:
KGS players play like military school graduates: scholarly, full of theories but without the experience of actual hard fighting.

As the two groups get stronger in search of dan-level,

So the answer is to improve your understanding of basics.

I don't think this is limited to Korea nor that is because learned as small children but because are small children. I think this is because it is possible to learn those fighting skills long before possible to grasp strategic theories.

While I was still ~5k at KGS, I played games on wbaduk, but after 20-30 games I found myself hovering around 15k(or weaker, I can't remember) instead.

In addition to lions in your analogy, we can also imagine
very experienced human street fighters.

In contrast, I think many wbaduk korean players are youths who learn the game from their parents from very young and love to keep playing to win.

I would be curious to find out if the tables are turned when someone from Korea tries to learn Western chess (largely from books) and ends up playing against someone who learned via thousands of bullet games in the park...

Korean players who played many many years in go club usually know all the trick plays even if they are weak kyu.
They certainly have advantage over new players who just started playing.
after they reach dan level such advantage becomes meaningless.

also there are many many sandbaggers in Korean server. some are professional level and play as kyu level player.

also I think Koreans love fighting more than other race. Not every Korean loves fighting but they are certainly more aggressive due to their many years of experience in go club.

It made me think that pre-dan level,
wbaduk koreans play like lions: wild, fearless, bestial, powerful.
KGS players play like military school graduates: scholarly, full of theories but without the experience of actual hard fighting.

As the two groups get stronger in search of dan-level,
wbaduk koreans are trying to control their ferocity and direct their power.
KGS players are trying to gain more actual fighting experience and use it to understand their theories properly.

That reminds me of something that Ben Hogan wrote about golf.
The perfect golf swing is smooth and precise.
But at the start, he recommended not trying for a smooth swing,
but to try to hit the hell out of the ball.
He said that if you don't develop your power from the start, you never will.

That reminds me of something that Ben Hogan wrote about golf. The perfect golf swing is smooth and precise. But at the start, he recommended not trying for a smooth swing, but to try to hit the hell out of the ball. He said that if you don't develop your power from the start, you never will.

I think whether in golf, archery or any other sport it's usually easier to increase power when you've already got control. Getting control over power too big for you to have a handle on seems harder to me.

Pandazilla wrote:

Similar to many aspects of Go, both are continuums:

Zero power (asleep, in a coma, etc.) to "optimal" power: a continuum;
Zero control to "optimal" control: another continuum.

Therefore, "getting control" is not binary; it's also a continuum.

Author:	siowy [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:01 am ]
Post subject:	my experience playing with koreans on wbaduk
I learned this game myself about five years ago. I played on and off and got to 4k on KGS. I want to share my experience playing on wbaduk, where most players are from korea(you can see the players home countries next to their ID). I think many KGS english room players are random english-speaking people who discover the game by chance and learn by watching videos and reading articles and playing on KGS with other players like themselves. In contrast, I think many wbaduk korean players are youths who learn the game from their parents from very young and love to keep playing to win. One of the reasons I think so is because I saw a similar situation at my local dan-promotion tournament(in Singapore). The large majority of players were children from china who were studying in Singapore and learned the game from their parents. They played quickly, impatiently and restlessly, fiddling with their stones during their opponent's turn instead of thinking. But they were also strong fighters. I think many of the wbaduk korean players are similar to this. While I was still ~5k at KGS, I played games on wbaduk, but after 20-30 games I found myself hovering around 15k(or weaker, I can't remember) instead. It made me think that pre-dan level, wbaduk koreans play like lions: wild, fearless, bestial, powerful. KGS players play like military school graduates: scholarly, full of theories but without the experience of actual hard fighting. As the two groups get stronger in search of dan-level, wbaduk koreans are trying to control their ferocity and direct their power. KGS players are trying to gain more actual fighting experience and use it to understand their theories properly. Go is a beautiful game.

Author:	EdLee [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:44 am ]
Post subject:
siowy wrote: pre-dan level, wbaduk koreans play like lions: KGS players play like military school graduates: scholarly, full of theories but without the experience of actual hard fighting. As the two groups get stronger in search of dan-level, Hi siowy, Yes, there's some truth to what you said; perhaps it's even quite accurate. Sorry it's the same discussion as in your recent game reviews, but Posts 51-59 of Go-Man -- both groups are trying to fix their own deficiencies in different areas of Go-dots. In the mean time, because the mid-game is often about fights, the group with vastly superior Go-dots of fighting skills will likely win. ( Which is precisely what happens over and over again when we hear reports about adult Westerners who have some theory Go-dots visit Go schools in China or Korea, and they face little children with very few theory Go-dots but tremendous amounts of fighting skill Go-dots: the children would crush the adults in fights. ) In addition to lions in your analogy, we can also imagine very experienced human street fighters.

Author:	Mike Novack [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: my experience playing with koreans on wbaduk
I don't think this is limited to Korea nor that is because learned as small children but because are small children. I think this is because it is possible to learn those fighting skills long before possible to grasp strategic theories. Look at examples of play (game records, handicap games against strong pros) of children who when they grew up became strong pros. You can see signs of their future greatness in their fighting ability at this tender age even while they are making strategic errors. BTW, that was the impression of the strong players at our club when I brought in MFOG 12. That it was playing at about 1 dan (on the hardware I had it on) but that this was very unbalanced, much stronger in tactics and what could be done with widely scattered potential than in strategy (in both cases, against the 5 dan and the 7 dan, surprising the with counterattacks "out of the blue")

Author:	gowan [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: my experience playing with koreans on wbaduk
So the answer is to improve your understanding of basics. Most of these "berserker" fighters make overplays one after another so if you get used to it and play solid, good shape, and learn how to make multipurpose defensive moves you'll do OK. You will have to make a punch yourself, too. If you don't response properly to overplays they can become better than proper moves. Remember that this crazy fighting style is really not good go. Of course you'll lose a lot of games before you learn the knack of handling it. Many of us play using standard shapes and joseki and when our opponent plays unusual moves we get flustered. As I said, the answer is to learn general basics so you can see why these moves are bad moves and take advantage of them.

Author:	EdLee [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:
gowan wrote: So the answer is to improve your understanding of basics. This.

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Author:	oren [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: my experience playing with koreans on wbaduk
Mike Novack wrote: I don't think this is limited to Korea nor that is because learned as small children but because are small children. I think this is because it is possible to learn those fighting skills long before possible to grasp strategic theories. I'm not sure why people think the opponents are small children. I think most are retired older players in general.

Author:	schawipp [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: my experience playing with koreans on wbaduk
siowy wrote: While I was still ~5k at KGS, I played games on wbaduk, but after 20-30 games I found myself hovering around 15k(or weaker, I can't remember) instead. For me, it's similar: Currently 4k on KGS and between 12-14k on WBaduk. However regarding the playing style I have a kind of "split" experience. Some opponents really feel strong and I get totally overplayed (starting already in Fuseki and being behind by ~30+ points in early midgame). In other games, they play rather weird style - typical for these games are e. g. crawling on second line, basic joseki mistakes or self-atari blunders. Both game types more or less compensate each other. And there is almost always heavy fighting going on. Thus, there seems a very broad playing strength variation in the DDK range (or maybe it's just me with my inconsistent playing style ). I assume that the rating will become more accurate in the SDK ranges, however there seems a huge barrier between DDK and SDK. Anyway, it's really challenging fun

Author:	Magicwand [ Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: my experience playing with koreans on wbaduk
Korean players who played many many years in go club usually know all the trick plays even if they are weak kyu. They certainly have advantage over new players who just started playing. after they reach dan level such advantage becomes meaningless. also there are many many sandbaggers in Korean server. some are professional level and play as kyu level player. also I think Koreans love fighting more than other race. Not every Korean loves fighting but they are certainly more aggressive due to their many years of experience in go club.

Author:	Mef [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re:
EdLee wrote: In addition to lions in your analogy, we can also imagine very experienced human street fighters. If we prefer a less violent analogy, you could think about street basketball players (who might have strong dribbling/shooting skills, but may never learn about zone defense, or have a referee count out whether they are spending more than 3 seconds in the lane). Perhaps better still would be tennis players...There are many players who simply play a lot and are very good at hitting the ball back. They might not have the proper form, the proper strokes, the right spin, etc....but they will chase down the ball and hit it back. It is very easy for an opponent to lose based on unforced errors if they are not careful. I personally think that this type of behavior is less of a cultural thing and more of a learning environment thing...In countries like China and Korea you are much more likely to have large groups of people who simply play a lot and learn by playing many, many games. Those groups more or less don't exist in the West. I would be curious to find out if the tables are turned when someone from Korea tries to learn Western chess (largely from books) and ends up playing against someone who learned via thousands of bullet games in the park...

Author:	Solomon [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: my experience playing with koreans on wbaduk
siowy wrote: In contrast, I think many wbaduk korean players are youths who learn the game from their parents from very young and love to keep playing to win. ...or retired old-timers who drank a bit too much soju before logging on.

Author:	topazg [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Mef wrote: I would be curious to find out if the tables are turned when someone from Korea tries to learn Western chess (largely from books) and ends up playing against someone who learned via thousands of bullet games in the park... Me too

Author:	Zombie [ Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: my experience playing with koreans on wbaduk
Magicwand wrote: Korean players who played many many years in go club usually know all the trick plays even if they are weak kyu. They certainly have advantage over new players who just started playing. after they reach dan level such advantage becomes meaningless. also there are many many sandbaggers in Korean server. some are professional level and play as kyu level player. also I think Koreans love fighting more than other race. Not every Korean loves fighting but they are certainly more aggressive due to their many years of experience in go club. This also extends to Starcraft for some reason. Westerners just want to play macro games because that's what is taught and hailed as "real" and "proper" (and we're obsessed as a culture with "one Truth" kind of thinking), while Koreans will just play "cheeses" every chance they get and do it well. A much more ideal environment for learning to play solidly, if you ask me, because any hole in your play will get blown wide open.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: my experience playing with koreans on wbaduk
siowy wrote: It made me think that pre-dan level, wbaduk koreans play like lions: wild, fearless, bestial, powerful. KGS players play like military school graduates: scholarly, full of theories but without the experience of actual hard fighting. As the two groups get stronger in search of dan-level, wbaduk koreans are trying to control their ferocity and direct their power. KGS players are trying to gain more actual fighting experience and use it to understand their theories properly. That reminds me of something that Ben Hogan wrote about golf. The perfect golf swing is smooth and precise. But at the start, he recommended not trying for a smooth swing, but to try to hit the hell out of the ball. He said that if you don't develop your power from the start, you never will.

Author:	EdLee [ Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:
Bill Spight wrote: That reminds me of something that Ben Hogan wrote about golf. The perfect golf swing is smooth and precise. But at the start, he recommended not trying for a smooth swing, but to try to hit the hell out of the ball. He said that if you don't develop your power from the start, you never will. This.

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Author:	paK0 [ Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: my experience playing with koreans on wbaduk
Conversely, aren't there a lot of martial arts that focus on form first rather then power?

Author:	Pandazilla [ Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: my experience playing with koreans on wbaduk
Bill Spight wrote: That reminds me of something that Ben Hogan wrote about golf. The perfect golf swing is smooth and precise. But at the start, he recommended not trying for a smooth swing, but to try to hit the hell out of the ball. He said that if you don't develop your power from the start, you never will. In archery it's the other way around: You start with light draw weights and care about your form, then start increasing draw weight while maintaining form. I think whether in golf, archery or any other sport it's usually easier to increase power when you've already got control. Getting control over power too big for you to have a handle on seems harder to me.

Author:	EdLee [ Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:25 am ]
Post subject:
Pandazilla wrote: I think whether in golf, archery or any other sport it's usually easier to increase power when you've already got control. Getting control over power too big for you to have a handle on seems harder to me. Similar to many aspects of Go, both are continuums: Zero power (asleep, in a coma, etc.) to "optimal" power: a continuum; Zero control to "optimal" control: another continuum. Therefore, "getting control" is not binary; it's also a continuum.

Author:	Mef [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
EdLee wrote: Pandazilla wrote: I think whether in golf, archery or any other sport it's usually easier to increase power when you've already got control. Getting control over power too big for you to have a handle on seems harder to me. Similar to many aspects of Go, both are continuums: Zero power (asleep, in a coma, etc.) to "optimal" power: a continuum; Zero control to "optimal" control: another continuum. Therefore, "getting control" is not binary; it's also a continuum. I think part of it may come down to the level of precision required to achieve the task. For target shooting there is a very immediate, very specific goal (projectile must hit small circle). For golf and go while we're at it, it depends on the stage. For putting and tsumego, "control" is key. It's important to get them right, then once you're getting them right you can move on to harder things. However when you're in the teebox (or the opening / middlegame for go), things are much less precise. The target for your drive might literally be the size of a football field, and odds are most of use aren't going to make a game losing mistake by choosing to approach a corner from the wrong direction. There may exist some theoretical perfect way to play, but it is not achievable for a human in the forseeable future. Instead it's better to play something (almost anything, really) that you're comfortable with and there's a good chance you'll still end up in a playable spot. In those cases, I think I'll side with Mr. Hogan (=

Author:	Hades12 [ Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: my experience playing with koreans on wbaduk
Im not sure how Tygem and WBaduk match up but seeing as they are both Korean servers I assume they are quite similar. Here's my story. When i was 5k on KGS I began playing on tygem and found myself at 10k because I would get flustered by the opponents crazy style and try to immediately counter and punish it. But as i progressed to now 2k on KGS with better fundamentals I play as a 1D on Tygem. Because when my opponents play a amarigatachi or over extending attacking style, i just make good shape. Then in the later middle game I can usually find a cutting tesuji and kill simething. The key is to be patient and wait for the opportune moment. You usually can't punish a bad play immediately. Slack moves or overplay moves normally have a lasting effect on the game. So how did I improve almost "ten stones" on Tygem and learn proper timing? Well i suggest reading Attack and Defense, Life and Death, and Tesuji. All great books for single kyu players.