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| Where does black play next? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11807 |
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Sat May 09, 2015 11:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Where does black play next? |
This is a game I'm playing against a bot so don't worry about helping me cheat. I have multiple concerns in the position: White splitting at C13 seems to be highly threatening to my top left group. Likewise, I have a weakness at C15. What's also concerning is the cut at F4 if I allow white to capture the the stones at D5. I would love to kill the D13 group starting with a move like E15 but I'm afraid that my position is too weak for this. What do you think? Perhaps a separate move altogether? |
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| Author: | Bki [ Sat May 09, 2015 12:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
You have so many weakness to defend that it's hard to decide. The cut at C13 can be severe, true, but white E6 would be so painful you very much want to capture that sooner rather than later... So can we find a way to protect against both? That should do the trick. If  at  , then at and you win the race.Though, if he doesn't cooperate and directly cut? Hum... You should give way, and then attack his two stones. Edit: Also, you really want to come back to the bottom right. |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Sat May 09, 2015 12:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
Why don't you finish the game and then post it for review? I'm sure there are things to talk about before this point, and you'll also have some idea of why your choice went right or wrong afterwards. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat May 09, 2015 12:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
Joelnelsonb wrote: This is a game I'm playing against a bot so don't worry about helping me cheat. I have multiple concerns in the position: White splitting at C13 seems to be highly threatening to my top left group. Likewise, I have a weakness at C15. What's also concerning is the cut at F4 if I allow white to capture the the stones at D5. I would love to kill the D13 group starting with a move like E15 but I'm afraid that my position is too weak for this. What do you think? Perhaps a separate move altogether? Given your concerns, what are the three best candidate moves for Black that you see? |
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Sat May 09, 2015 12:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
Bill Spight wrote: Joelnelsonb wrote: This is a game I'm playing against a bot so don't worry about helping me cheat. I have multiple concerns in the position: White splitting at C13 seems to be highly threatening to my top left group. Likewise, I have a weakness at C15. What's also concerning is the cut at F4 if I allow white to capture the the stones at D5. I would love to kill the D13 group starting with a move like E15 but I'm afraid that my position is too weak for this. What do you think? Perhaps a separate move altogether? Given your concerns, what are the three best candidate moves for Black that you see? I'm torn between C13 and E6 which is why I posted the question. I would just post the whole game for review but I thought this made for an interesting puzzle and wanted to use it to learn something. C11 is also on my mind. I would consider C13 and E6 to be a form of miai as I'm almost certain my opponent will respond accordingly. Bki: Is that the way real Go players think? Goodness... Edit: What do you think of giving up the top left and moving towards development in the top right? |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat May 09, 2015 1:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
OK. C-13, E-06, and C-11. How would you rank them, and why? |
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Sat May 09, 2015 1:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
Bill Spight wrote: OK. C-13, E-06, and C-11. How would you rank them, and why? From my perspective, I'm going to lose the top left or the bottom left. The bottom left corner looks like a better exchange for white and therefore I'm leaning towards E-06. Between C-11 and C-13? I like C-11 rather than the direct block |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat May 09, 2015 1:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
Joelnelsonb wrote: Edit: What do you think of giving up the top left and moving towards development in the top right? You mean like this? What do you think? |
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Sat May 09, 2015 1:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
Bill Spight wrote: Joelnelsonb wrote: Edit: What do you think of giving up the top left and moving towards development in the top right? You mean like this? What do you think? Well, I would take at E-06 first, then do something like K-13 after my opponent splits my top left. If white plays somewhere else, I'd probably defend the top left as well. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat May 09, 2015 1:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
Joelnelsonb wrote: Bill Spight wrote: OK. C-13, E-06, and C-11. How would you rank them, and why? From my perspective, I'm going to lose the top left or the bottom left. The bottom left corner looks like a better exchange for white and therefore I'm leaning towards E-06. Between C-11 and C-13? I like C-11 rather than the direct block OK, so your two top candidates are C-11 and E-06. I have a heuristic that may help you to compare the two. Treat them as miai, so that if you get one, they get the other. In this case that produces these comparisons. Vs. I think that E-05 is better for White in the bottom left, so I had White make that play.  Does this help? |
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Sat May 09, 2015 2:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
It does. Many thanks Bill! I appreciate Bki and skydyr's responses as well. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Sun May 17, 2015 1:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
If there are two places you need to play then something has gone wrong earlier. |
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Thu May 21, 2015 7:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
Uberdude wrote: If there are two places you need to play then something has gone wrong earlier. Would this be an indication that one is playing too thin? |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Thu May 21, 2015 7:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
I wouldn't say thin, as that is a rather higher-level concept. More that you are missing vital points of local shapes. |
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Thu May 21, 2015 7:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
So this whole idea of "shape" and making "proper shape": Is it the kinda thing, like learning to make life, that I'm supposed to learn, understand, get it under my belt and move on or is it more like attack and defense where I'll spend the rest of my life working on it? |
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| Author: | topazg [ Thu May 21, 2015 7:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
Joelnelsonb wrote: So this whole idea of "shape" and making "proper shape": Is it the kinda thing, like learning to make life, that I'm supposed to learn, understand, get it under my belt and move on or is it more like attack and defense where I'll spend the rest of my life working on it? Shape, learning to make life, attacking and defending ... yeah, all concepts you'll not get "under your belt" in a single lifetime, I promise
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Thu May 21, 2015 7:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
topazg wrote: Joelnelsonb wrote: So this whole idea of "shape" and making "proper shape": Is it the kinda thing, like learning to make life, that I'm supposed to learn, understand, get it under my belt and move on or is it more like attack and defense where I'll spend the rest of my life working on it? Shape, learning to make life, attacking and defending ... yeah, all concepts you'll not get "under your belt" in a single lifetime, I promise Lol. I just mean is it like learning what two eyes look like where it's like "oh, ok. got it" or is it a skill that slowly develops with your understanding of the game. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Thu May 21, 2015 7:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
The c13 shape problem is this: White can push at a and black can't block so he gets separated. So black needs to play a himself (or some other move like 2 spaces below that also fixes with some pros and cons) to connect. The e5 shape is not quite so simple to extract, but is essentially: Because  is atari due to the shape above after black white can get it and  and then the marked stone makes it hard for the 3 stones to escape. They aren't connected anymore. It's all about connecting.
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| Author: | topazg [ Thu May 21, 2015 7:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
I think the difficulty is the application more than anything. I wasn't trying to be facetious or flippant, honest! It's mostly that the basic idea of attacking "kill something, or make it uncomfortable enough that I get enough strength to kill something else or make lots of points (or possibly repeat the first step until it ends up in one of those two)" is straightforward, but the application isn't. The idea of good shape, e.g. "make it easy not to be uncomfortably pushed around, or struggle to make eyes, or find it harder to connect than I should" is simple - the application isn't ... etc etc Everything just sort of has new wonders to unfold and marvel at no matter where you reach in the game. Have you considered why Bill thought E6 was locally less of a good idea than E5 btw? |
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Thu May 21, 2015 7:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Where does black play next? |
Well he said that in reference to white's move so the reason would be that E-05 cuts off the bottom group after extending. |
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