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| White to play. http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11871 |
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Sun May 24, 2015 10:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | White to play. |
My assessment is that white has made poor joseki choices in all three corners giving the star-point stone in the bottom right the most powerful position on the board. I feel like if white allows black to take either of the 4-7 points in the bottom right, the game will well be over. The problem is that it seems like any invasion into the bottom right would only strengthen the black position in gote. How should white prevent black from dominating the center? |
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| Author: | illluck [ Sun May 24, 2015 10:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
I don't think it's really the joseki choice - it's mainly that white played an extra move on the lower left when not needed. I sort of want to try either "a" or "b" here, but not confident if that's the right way to play. |
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| Author: | Bki [ Sun May 24, 2015 10:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
Well, the variation played in the upper left is certainly questionable given it still leave aji for black to use in the corner. Still, Black has a nice formation on two side of the board, while white can really only look forward to building the top. My intuition is a shoulder hit at a, which induce black blocking the other (narrower) side when white invade at b, then one of the c point sounds good. Or maybe play b directly and leave a for later? |
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| Author: | SoDesuNe [ Sun May 24, 2015 11:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
This is my first instict. The reason is that any checking extension towards Black's bottom group could make it pretty weak, thanks to the marked stone. And if Black should pincer  then, he has two choices. Low and his entire bottom is flat, White can even attach on the pincering stone and then double approach the corner. If Black pincers high, White should have no trouble living there.
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun May 24, 2015 11:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
Yes, Black has taken an early lead. But the game is far from over, especially at the DDK level. looks like the natural play to me. Through  White puts some pressure on the weak  group in the bottom left. 
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Sun May 24, 2015 1:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
What I fear is an exchange like this, only developing black's position further. |
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| Author: | DJLLAP [ Sun May 24, 2015 1:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
I don't think Black is in much danger of dominating the center at all right now. All of B's marked stones are low, which make them inefficient at controlling the center. All W really needs to do to prevent that from happening is avoid choosing variations that give W territory and B thickness pointing towards the center. Maybe you don't feel comfortable doing exchanges for influence, so naturally choose territory every time? For example the most common joseki for the position you said you were worried about involves gaining access to the center, but you chose a variation that cut you off from the center. Joelnelsonb wrote: What I fear is an exchange like this, only developing black's position further. A more appropriate variation being this: |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun May 24, 2015 3:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
 jumps into the corner.  is a good play, leaving Black with an open skirt on the right side.White can take kikashi with  and then play  on the frontier of frameworks.White has reasonable chances.
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| Author: | Bki [ Mon May 25, 2015 12:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
Honestly, I think I would prefer this for black. Sure, the bottom side is low, but it's also fairly safe, while if  was high, then white could slide and take away much of his base.Of course, because white end with sente, this certainly is not bad for him either. He can invade the right side afterwards, or defend the top side, or shoulder hit the bottom side... |
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Mon May 25, 2015 9:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
Btw, I've been told that white should always play the 1-3 in the bottom left after black plays around 3-10 (or vice versa) to prevent a cramped shaped. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon May 25, 2015 10:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
 -  is a common exchange. White secures the corner.If White plays elsewhere, then  pretty well forces  to protect against a Black play at "a".
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| Author: | Vesa [ Mon May 25, 2015 11:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
Nobody suggested this one yet? Especially because the circle stone is played. Continuations might give white a good opportunity to reduce the right side later. Cheers, Vesa |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon May 25, 2015 1:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
Is the top left shape correct? It looks like they played a common 3-4 joseki and then used the sleeve tesuji to make it a 4-4 non-joseki. Joelnelsonb wrote: Btw, I've been told that white should always play the 1-3 in the bottom left after black plays around 3-10 (or vice versa) to prevent a cramped shaped. As Bill said c2 is a common defence when black plays c8. But it is not an always. There are very few always in Go. And black didn't even play c8 in this game but c9 so the white corner has lots more room and a defence is unnecessary and slow. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon May 25, 2015 3:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
Supposing that the board earlier looked like this: If White replies to with , we may anticipate that the play will continue like this, with White taking gote with  . (Given White's desire to play .)OTOH, if White replies simply at , we may anticipate something like this, which allows White to take sente.
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Tue May 26, 2015 12:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
So in posting this question, I wasn't looking so much for a particular sequence of moves but rather a general strategy for breaking up the black infrastructure. It appears, based on all the answers given, that white's best plan would be to approach the star point stone while putting pressure on the weak group in the bottom left. I think I missed this because I underestimated the potential of the 2-3 stone played by white. I've been reading "The Direction of Play" (which is an amazing book, btw. not sure how I've gotten so far without it. He starts off by telling you to forget everything you think you know about Go and he reteaches you the fundamentals of the game from scratch). In the book, he heavily encourages using the full potential of every stone played (especially in the opening) and this puzzle demonstrates my weakness in this regard. Edit: Probably the biggest point that he makes in the book is to stop playing joseki moves simply because they're joseki. Instead, he teaches you to continually assess the whole board on every move and to search for the "direction of play" instead. He demonstrates how insanely important the very first moves of the game are. |
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| Author: | DJLLAP [ Tue May 26, 2015 1:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
Joelnelsonb wrote: So in posting this question, I wasn't looking so much for a particular sequence of moves but rather a general strategy for breaking up the black infrastructure. It appears, based on all the answers given, that white's best plan would be to approach the star point stone while putting pressure on the weak group in the bottom left. I think I missed this because I underestimated the potential of the 2-3 stone played by white. I've been reading "The Direction of Play" (which is an amazing book, btw. not sure how I've gotten so far without it. He starts off by telling you to forget everything you think you know about Go and he reteaches you the fundamentals of the game from scratch). In the book, he heavily encourages using the full potential of every stone played (especially in the opening) and this puzzle demonstrates my weakness in this regard. Edit: Probably the biggest point that he makes in the book is to stop playing joseki moves simply because they're joseki. Instead, he teaches you to continually assess the whole board on every move and to search for the "direction of play" instead. He demonstrates how insanely important the very first moves of the game are. I have never read Direction of Play, but I have heard that it has a somewhat dubious reputation. Not because the information contained in it is wrong or bad, but because it is very hard to access and confusing at times. I have heard many say that it is a book for high level dan players only, so it is cool that you are reading and enjoying it. As for the first moves of the game being insanely important, tell that to Gu Li when he lost the Jubango with Lee Sedol. The pro commentaries say that Gu was ahead after the opening of every game, but usually, one small middle-game blunder threw the whole game in favor of Lee Sedol. The opening is important, but it only makes a significant difference when both players are already proficient at reading and fighting. |
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| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Tue May 26, 2015 1:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
It is a very difficult book to understand as he takes what you might call an artistic approach to the game rather than analytical. He (Takeo Kajiwara) emphasizes that the complicated details aren't important for what he's trying to teach. He just wants you to grasp the underlying concept to be employed on every move. I feel like it's a book that I can continue to read and reread regardless of how much I improve at the game. It's just good,fundamental food for thought. As for the first moves, what I mean is that he explains the significant advantages and disadvantages of the opening moves even as they relate to every other move. According to Kajiwara, The fewer stones there are on the board, the stronger the relationship between each stone. So the first move played by white is heavily influenced by black's first move and so on. This brings a little bit of understanding to those statements made by pro's like "the game was lost on the second move." It reminds me of studying Chess in that the first moves say so much about the direction that the game will go (if followed-up properly). |
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| Author: | topazg [ Tue May 26, 2015 1:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
FWIW, that and Kageyama's fundamentals books are probably my two favourite Go books. I have lots of others with good resources in (Yilun Yang's fundamental principles etc) but those two ... I just like. It's not the moves that they leave you with, it's the underlying attitude's and overarching ideas that make them re-readable again and again IMO |
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| Author: | mitsun [ Tue May 26, 2015 1:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
Since the two B wings are nearly equal, the symmetrical invasion at would be my first choice. B will probably block the left side, where the extension is slightly wider. W should be able to live in sente, then set about reducing the resulting B thickness. W can strive for more efficiency by trying to make exchanges a-b-c-d before invading, but there is no guarantee B will play along.
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue May 26, 2015 1:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: White to play. |
DJLLAP wrote: Joelnelsonb wrote: So in posting this question, I wasn't looking so much for a particular sequence of moves but rather a general strategy for breaking up the black infrastructure. It appears, based on all the answers given, that white's best plan would be to approach the star point stone while putting pressure on the weak group in the bottom left. I think I missed this because I underestimated the potential of the 2-3 stone played by white. I've been reading "The Direction of Play" (which is an amazing book, btw. not sure how I've gotten so far without it. He starts off by telling you to forget everything you think you know about Go and he reteaches you the fundamentals of the game from scratch). In the book, he heavily encourages using the full potential of every stone played (especially in the opening) and this puzzle demonstrates my weakness in this regard. Edit: Probably the biggest point that he makes in the book is to stop playing joseki moves simply because they're joseki. Instead, he teaches you to continually assess the whole board on every move and to search for the "direction of play" instead. He demonstrates how insanely important the very first moves of the game are. I have never read Direction of Play, but I have heard that it has a somewhat dubious reputation. Not because the information contained in it is wrong or bad, but because it is very hard to access and confusing at times. I have heard many say that it is a book for high level dan players only, so it is cool that you are reading and enjoying it. Kajiwara was a creative and colorful character. He was prone to exaggeration, which is evident in the book. Not to disparage it at all, but Kajiwara should be read as a stimulus to your own thinking rather than taking him as gospel. I don't think he would want it any other way. The book was aimed at kyu players. As are most go books.Quote: As for the first moves of the game being insanely important, tell that to Gu Li when he lost the Jubango with Lee Sedol. The pro commentaries say that Gu was ahead after the opening of every game, but usually, one small middle-game blunder threw the whole game in favor of Lee Sedol. The opening is important, but it only makes a significant difference when both players are already proficient at reading and fighting. Sorry, but that's a crock. I don't know why it is popular these days to disparage the opening. Where do the pros spend their time thinking? Sure, if you are a 5 kyu and come out of the opening 15 points down, you still have a chance to win the game. But if your opponent is as capable as you are in the middle game, those chances are slim. OTOH, if your opponent is also 5 kyu and is better than you in the opening, while you are better in the middle game, then the odds are pretty even. Otherwise you would not both be 5 kyus. It is true that if you are a 5 dan and come out of the opening 15 points down against an opponent who is as good as you are in the middle game, you can almost resign. But that is nothing against the opening. It is that the variability of 5 dan games is much less than the variability of 5 kyu games. |
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