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How to read
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12554		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Thofte [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:43 am ]
Post subject:  How to read
Hello. I am a KGS 2-3k. Many people keep telling me that the fastest way to get stronger would be doing lots of tsumegos.
Some say you should do very hard problems, and just try to read as far as possible. Others say you should do easy problems and solve them quickly.
I've been trying both, but I don't really see any improvement in my game. Maybe I'm doing it wrong? When I try to visualize the stones after a few moves I forget how the position was and have to start reading all over again. How do you read? Thanks for your answers!
Author:  MinjaeKim [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
There is really no special way for this. If you forget the position when reading, just do it again until you get comfortable to it. Solving a lot of tsumegos is a very very good way to train your reading skills. I can't say it's always fun, but believe me, it does help you a lot and you'll eventually 'feel' that your understanding to this game has changed when you see pro moves for example. Reading is the most fundamental and important part in anyone's go skills.

It was my solving several hundred go problems from 'sahwal.com' that made me overcome a strong computer opponent called Zenith Go. I believe those problems let me be at least a stone stronger.
Author:  DrStraw [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
http://senseis.xmp.net/?SteveFawthrop%2 ... feAndDeath
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
Knowing how to read consists of the following:
- Know the major types of reading (tactical reading with one aim, dynamic reading with flexible aims, strategic reading).
- For each major type of reading, learn its theory of reading, that is, which variations to read, how to read them, how to make decisions relating them to each other.
- If the aim is specialised (such as "Determine the life and death status"), also learn the additional, specialised theory.
- Improve on your imagination and visualisation of variations and decisions.
- By knowing the applicable theory of reading, you also know which variations and decisions you still need to recall and which you may already forget because of having drawn the relevant conclusions.
- Problem solving enables you to apply everything in practice and improve on your reading skill. Solving a problem consists of reading all necessary variations, making all necessary decisions and so determining the correct solutions. (Note: arbitrary partial reading and determining the correct solution are insufficient. Problem books showing only a partial selection of relevant variations and decisions must not mislead you. Not such books tell you what is necessary and sufficient, but the theory of reading tells you.)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
Thofte wrote:
Hello. I am a KGS 2-3k. Many people keep telling me that the fastest way to get stronger would be doing lots of tsumegos.
Some say you should do very hard problems, and just try to read as far as possible. Others say you should do easy problems and solve them quickly.
I've been trying both, but I don't really see any improvement in my game.


My suggestion is to try neither. Choose problems that you can solve about half the time. Review those that you miss after a month or so until you can solve them every time.

Oh, yes. Don't just do tsumego. Do tesuji and endgame problems, as well. :)

Quote:
Maybe I'm doing it wrong? When I try to visualize the stones after a few moves I forget how the position was and have to start reading all over again.


You are probably doing it fine, as far as the calculation of variations is concerned. Research indicates that both pros and amateurs do that pretty much the same. But your selection of moves and judgement of resultant positions may need some help. (OC, tsumego problems usually set you a recognizable and achievable goal, but you do not usually have that luxury in real games.) One idea that I picked up from Kotov, in Think Like a Grandmaster, is to identify candidate moves at each step, even if you are calculating depth first. One idea for tsumego is to look for eyes before you look for moves. :)

Quote:
How do you read? Thanks for your answers!


Not to disparage reading, but I am a big fan of seeing. :) See viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12287 and viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12327&p=196121#p196121
Author:  Kirby [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
Bill Spight wrote:
Choose problems that you can solve about half the time.


What do you mean by "can solve about half the time"? For a given time period?

If one is able to solve a problem, I don't understand how they can only solve it half of the time.
Author:  Elom [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
The best thing I can think of:

--1--Go through a large number of problems (at a comfortable level of course).

--2--Do them again.

It's common for strong western players to travel to another country to study go for a period of time, and upon returning realise little change in playing ability.

Only to then, a year later, in retrospect, notice they had improved significantly yet hadn't noticed at the time.

Is it that the stronger you get, the worse it becomes when recognising your own improvement?
Author:  Cassandra [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
Bill Spight wrote:
One idea for tsumego is to look for eyes before you look for moves. :)

More than 300 years ago, Inoue Dôsetsu Inseki recommended to study SHAPE.

It will help you to identify the vital points of the position in question (these are not restricted to "eye points").

Quote:
Not to disparage reading, but I am a big fan of seeing.

I agree. "Seeing" will follow automatically, after some time (and some tsumego studied thoroughly).

Please be aware that it will be of no use to study problems that are "too difficult" (i. e. above your current level). The more difficult a problem is, the more hidden below the surface are the vital shape points.

And please also note that there is no easy-to-follow cooking recipe available that you could adopt in every case. It does not help, but you will have to find your own way to solve tsumego.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Choose problems that you can solve about half the time.


What do you mean by "can solve about half the time"? For a given time period?

If one is able to solve a problem, I don't understand how they can only solve it half of the time.


English does not treat plurals the same as singulars. For instance, to quote a song, "the rivers change direction across the great divide." True, but no river changes direction across the great divide. ;)

Anyway, "solve about half the time" means "solve with about 50% probability". OC, after the fact, one has either solved a problem or not. But before attempting to solve a problem, it makes perfect sense to say that you may be able to solve it with about 50% probability. If that is the degree of difficulty of a problem, it is a Goldilocks problem, not too hard, not too easy, but just right. :D
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
Cassandra wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
One idea for tsumego is to look for eyes before you look for moves. :)

More than 300 years ago, Inoue Dôsetsu Inseki recommended to study SHAPE.

It will help you to identify the vital points of the position in question (these are not restricted to "eye points").


I am also a big fan of shape. :) However, shape points are not the same as eye points. There is some research on eye movements of players solving tsumego. The less skilled solvers looked at points on which to play, but the more skilled solvers looked at potential eye points. :)
Author:  Kirby [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
Bill Spight wrote:

English does not treat plurals the same as singulars. For instance, to quote a song, "the rivers change direction across the great divide." True, but no river changes direction across the great divide. ;)

Anyway, "solve about half the time" means "solve with about 50% probability". OC, after the fact, one has either solved a problem or not. But before attempting to solve a problem, it makes perfect sense to say that you may be able to solve it with about 50% probability. If that is the degree of difficulty of a problem, it is a Goldilocks problem, not too hard, not too easy, but just right. :D


Ok. I guess I was confused, because I feel like any problem is "solvable" given enough time, so it's difficult for me to identify a problem that I can solve with 50% probability, unless there is some sort of time limit involved (e.g. "There's about 50% chance I can solve this problem within 10 minutes").

OTOH, I have seen some tough problems, and perhaps I wouldn't be able to solve them even if I had days to try.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:

English does not treat plurals the same as singulars. For instance, to quote a song, "the rivers change direction across the great divide." True, but no river changes direction across the great divide. ;)

Anyway, "solve about half the time" means "solve with about 50% probability". OC, after the fact, one has either solved a problem or not. But before attempting to solve a problem, it makes perfect sense to say that you may be able to solve it with about 50% probability. If that is the degree of difficulty of a problem, it is a Goldilocks problem, not too hard, not too easy, but just right. :D


Ok. I guess I was confused, because I feel like any problem is "solvable" given enough time, so it's difficult for me to identify a problem that I can solve with 50% probability, unless there is some sort of time limit involved (e.g. "There's about 50% chance I can solve this problem within 10 minutes").


You are right that a time limit is involved, and I did not address that aspect. But I think that people pretty well self-regulate in regard to how much time they will spend on a problem before doing something else (whether they look at the solution or not). When I was an SDK doing problems on the subway I took around 2-5 minutes on a problem. When I was a 4 dan I would do 4 problems in an hour in the bathtub. ;) Eureka! :)
Author:  Cassandra [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
Bill Spight wrote:
Cassandra wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
One idea for tsumego is to look for eyes before you look for moves. :)

More than 300 years ago, Inoue Dôsetsu Inseki recommended to study SHAPE.

It will help you to identify the vital points of the position in question (these are not restricted to "eye points").


I am also a big fan of shape. :) However, shape points are not the same as eye points. There is some research on eye movements of players solving tsumego. The less skilled solvers looked at points on which to play, but the more skilled solvers looked at potential eye points. :)

This may be true.

I once heard similar from a collegue who participated in a driving security training.
He was told that many accidents would not end so desastous, if the drivers did not stare at the tree trunks before their car that come nearer and nearer (to avoid hitting one of these), but at the empty space between these (the real target).

But let's return to the field of tsumego :)

"Vital point of the position" / "Shape point" -- as I understand these terms -- is much more than only board points where you can place a stone. There will be a SmartGo Book coming soon that covers this topic thoroughly.
Author:  Thofte [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
First of all thanks to everyone for their answers, they were very helpful!


Quote:
Not to disparage reading, but I am a big fan of seeing. :)


When I try to solve a tsumego, I don't really see the stones on the board. It is hard to say, I kind of try to save the information, like: this group now has 3 liberties, or after a throw in that is no longer an eye. Maybe that kind of technique isn't very practical? Should I try to just visualize, but I guess that would be even harder for me...
Author:  Cassandra [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
Thofte wrote:
Quote:
Not to disparage reading, but I am a big fan of seeing. :)

When I try to solve a tsumego, I don't really see the stones on the board. It is hard to say, I kind of try to save the information, like: this group now has 3 liberties, or after a throw in that is no longer an eye. Maybe that kind of technique isn't very practical? Should I try to just visualize, but I guess that would be even harder for me...

As I wrote already, everyone has to find their individual way of solving tsumego.

Your description makes clear that you are able to look behind the surface of the position.

Usually, partial groups with only three liberties are quite vulnerable to an attack.
"After a throw-in" means that there is a potential false eye.

However, you will have to combine ALL the information that is given by "shape" to identify the correct point to begin with :)

And there are many problems that have the "real" challenge later ...
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
Cassandra wrote:
"Vital point of the position" / "Shape point" -- as I understand these terms -- is much more than only board points where you can place a stone. There will be a SmartGo Book coming soon that covers this topic thoroughly.


Glad to hear it. There is some good material on shape in English, but we can certainly use more. :)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
Thofte wrote:
First of all thanks to everyone for their answers, they were very helpful!


Quote:
Not to disparage reading, but I am a big fan of seeing. :)


When I try to solve a tsumego, I don't really see the stones on the board. It is hard to say, I kind of try to save the information, like: this group now has 3 liberties, or after a throw in that is no longer an eye. Maybe that kind of technique isn't very practical?


It is practical. Analysis is good, and often a timesaver. :)

Quote:
Should I try to just visualize, but I guess that would be even harder for me...


You may find the "Rapid Calculation" thread interesting, especially the posts on meaning and visualization. :)
Author:  belikewater [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
Bill Spight wrote:
The less skilled solvers looked at points on which to play, but the more skilled solvers looked at potential eye points. :)


This is an interesting statement. Would you be able to flesh it out a bit more as to what the difference looks like in an example? I thought most players looked for eye points but I may be misunderstanding what that means.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
belikewater wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
The less skilled solvers looked at points on which to play, but the more skilled solvers looked at potential eye points. :)


This is an interesting statement. Would you be able to flesh it out a bit more as to what the difference looks like in an example? I thought most players looked for eye points but I may be misunderstanding what that means.


My guess is that the less skilled solvers were looking where stones would be played in variations. Like, "I play here, he plays there, I play here, he plays there, here, there, here, there, . . ."
Author:  Gotraskhalana [ Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to read
Bill Spight wrote:
I am also a big fan of shape. :) However, shape points are not the same as eye points. There is some research on eye movements of players solving tsumego. The less skilled solvers looked at points on which to play, but the more skilled solvers looked at potential eye points. :)


Thanks for this interesting bit of information which harmonises well with my views on learning and teaching.

I just want to remark that this does not necessarily mean that it is a good teaching goal to make everyone immediately look at the eye points. (See the research on how gifted children read leading to the conclusion that everyone has to be made to read whole words first.)
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