Life In 19x19 :: Off-joseki sequence after pincer?

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Off-joseki sequence after pincer? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12869	Page 1 of 1

Author:	memotype [ Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:25 am ]
Post subject:	Off-joseki sequence after pincer?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Off-joseki sequence $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . \| $$ \| . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 6 . . . . . , . O . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . a 1 b . 7 . . . . . . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] My question is about and my response at . I thought it was odd for white to play the oogeima after my jump, and I wasn't sure how to respond. I couldn't find this sequence in Kogo's joseki library, and I couldn't see how I could pass up an opportunity to attack white's corner stone, but I wasn't sure what the right attack move was. My move at seemed like a strong attack, but it does seem to give white the option of taking the corner at a, giving black the side, or extending out at b, giving black the corner. I thought about playing at a, but it seemed like it would be too easy to cut with at . And then really confused me, seeming to completely give up on the corner altogether. If black plays at b, is white dead in the corner, or can white live? (For what it's worth, I ended up playing at a, so I'm not trying to cheat by asking where I should play in this game, just curious about how it reads out.) Anyway, this whole sequence just really confused me and I'm just curious to see what people think about it. In case it's relevant, this is a game on DGS. I'm ranked at 9k on there, and white is also 9k.

Author: EdLee [ Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:34 am ]

Post subject:

Hi memotype,

F3 for :b6:

is a possibility.

Suppose we ignore the global considerations for the moment.
Locally, when you jump out to :b4:

,
you have miai of two directions -- the grey areas:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . ? ? . . . . . $$ | . . ? ? . . . . . $$ | . . . ? . . . . . $$ | . . 3 ? ? . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . 4 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 . ? . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

That's one meaning of jumping out to :b4:

.
W plays

on top, so pressuring :w1:

is natural.
One variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . X . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 6 . O . 1 5 . . $$ | . . . . 4 2 3 . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

BTW, what's the current position on DGS ?
If :w7:

is current, then it seems a bit too soon
to ask for advice at the moment...
( Any comments on :w7:

or follow-ups to your :b6:

can affect your on-going DGS game. )

Author:	macelee [ Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Off-joseki sequence after pincer?
And globally, is quite a good move. It prevent black from getting the key point C10. At the same time, it is 4th line position helps to reduce the influence of the tengen stone. Playing off-joseki moves is not necessarily a bad thing. As a simple rule, if you can find at least two good reasons for playing a move (like I just did), it is probably a reasonable move, on or off joseki.

Author:	Uberdude [ Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Off-joseki sequence after pincer?
memotype wrote: I couldn't see how I could pass up an opportunity to attack white's corner stone, but I wasn't sure what the right attack move was. My move at seemed like a strong attack As a general principle, if you want to attack don't touch your opponent's stone(s). Attack from a distance. Ed's f3 is a perfect example of attacking and surrounding from a distance (it's what I'd play).

Author:	memotype [ Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re:
EdLee wrote: ( Any comments on or follow-ups to your can affect your on-going DGS game. ) Here's the current board position: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Off-joseki sequence $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . \| $$ \| . . X , O . . . . 0 . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 2 . 4 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 6 . . . . . , . O . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . 8 1 . . 7 . . . . . . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I'm mostly interested in feedback on my moves at and . I know someone else said attacking by attaching isn't a good idea, but I have a much stronger group, and my plan wasn't to capture anyway, but to attach and push.

Author:	EdLee [ Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:41 am ]
Post subject:
Hi memotype, I started to edit a variation diagram, but then remembered/realized it could affect your on-going game, as mentioned, so I deleted the diagram. memotype wrote: but I have a much stronger group, and my plan wasn't to capture anyway, but to attach and push. I'd be interested to hear others' opinions on this, too, but my assessment is your group is not only not "much stronger," but actually still weak after your .

Author:	Tryss [ Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Off-joseki sequence after pincer?
Did you consider your 8 at E3?

Author:	hyperpape [ Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Off-joseki sequence after pincer?
We can only say so much since it's an ongoing game, but compare the current board to the one after Ed's variation? Which do you prefer? Why?

Author:	memotype [ Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Off-joseki sequence after pincer?
Tryss wrote: Did you consider your 8 at E3? Yes, as I explained in my original diagram, I was considering at b. You think that would have been a better move? Do you think white would be able to live in the corner after that move?

Author:	memotype [ Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Off-joseki sequence after pincer?
hyperpape wrote: We can only say so much since it's an ongoing game, but compare the current board to the one after Ed's variation? Which do you prefer? Why? I think if I wanted to surround white, the variation where I play at b in my original diagram would be better: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Off-joseki sequence $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . \| $$ \| . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 6 . . . . . , . O . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . 9 1 8 . 7 . . . . . . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	Uberdude [ Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
White's game 7 was very odd and let you get more than you deserved. The normal continuation would be something like this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Off-joseki sequence (11 at a) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . \| $$ \| . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 6 . . a . . , . O . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . 0 8 1 7 . . . . . . . . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] You can see, that as often happens when you attach, both sides got stronger. As for: memotype wrote: I was considering at b. You think that would have been a better move? Do you think white would be able to live in the corner after that move? Even if white can live in the corner it is a disaster, as white is separated into many groups.

Author:	memotype [ Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Uberdude wrote: White's game 7 was very odd and let you get more than you deserved. Thank you, that's what I wanted to know. Seemed very odd to me, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something vital in white's play. Which is why I played at a to be on the safe side, in case was some kind of trap that I wasn't reading out correctly. Quote: The normal continuation would be something like this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Off-joseki sequence (11 at a) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . \| $$ \| . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 6 . . a . . , . O . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . 0 8 1 7 . . . . . . . . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] You can see, that as often happens when you attach, both sides got stronger. As for: memotype wrote: I was considering at b. You think that would have been a better move? Do you think white would be able to live in the corner after that move? Even if white can live in the corner it is a disaster, as white is separated into many groups. Good point, I should have thought of that. Again, white's play was so strange and unusual that I played overly cautious. I should have been more aggressive. Thanks again, this is pretty much exactly the kind of analysis I was looking for.

Author:	EdLee [ Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:36 am ]
Post subject:
Hi memotype, The variation in post 11 was the one I had already edited in post 6, but deleted it as the lower left corner is still not finished in your on-going game.

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