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jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #8) http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=16386 |
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Author: | Ian Butler [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:46 am ] |
Post subject: | jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #8) |
Current standings jlt 5 - 3 Ian Butler This morning jlt and me played the first match of our Jubango (10 match series). I was black, jlt white. 1 hour main time and 5 periods of 40 seconds Byo-Yomi. The game lasted about 2 hours. I already did some light reviewing with Leela on this match. In the end, it didn't seem as if white had too much trouble handling black and so I'll have to do a lot better next time. In our jubango, a handicap will take place if one player has a 3 win lead in the series. We'll post our entire jubango in this thread. It's a lot of fun, hopefully we'll learn something from it, too! ![]() ![]() |
Author: | dfan [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:28 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1) |
A couple of things I noticed from the early game, not by any means the most important: For ![]() What does ![]() |
Author: | mhlepore [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:57 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1) |
First, nice bowls! What kind are they? Second, I second dfan's comment about move 25 being where you could have improved your position. - Why? Because white just played a very uninteresting move 24. Your stones at the bottom already have a base, so White's move is sort of one dimensional and doesn't require an urgent response. - So what could be a good move 25? At this point my mind goes to the proverb "the one space jump is never wrong." That is, I would probably play K15. Later you have P13 to expand on the right, and D11 (as just one example) to expand on the left. |
Author: | jlt [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:53 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1) |
Hi, I'm back, I couldn't stay to make a live review but here are a few thoughts. First, I really like the time setting, it allows us to make more thoughtful moves, like in a real tournament. Both of us made big mistakes (I made a couple of 1pt. gote moves), you managed to punish some of my mistakes, so I don't feel I had an easy game, and I found it quite entertaining. I didn't review the game with LeelaZero yet, so here is my human thinking: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:54 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1) |
Some top of the head comments, aimed at a wide range of strength. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() You are right. This is a puzzling position. C-12 comes to mind, but the right side is surely big. Still, a simple wedge like R-09 is hardly dynamic. Leela’s submarine suggestion is a good one. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Author: | Ian Butler [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:25 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1) |
Bill Spight wrote: Some top of the head comments, aimed at a wide range of strength. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() I don't worry about what the bots like. I'm still human so I like to play human moves ![]() ![]() Moves 49, 53 and 55 don't feel particularly good while I played them, but I thought I needed to do that because else white would get almost all the middle. It also (very) loosely connects my stones, or implies a connection. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:43 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1) |
Ian Butler wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Some top of the head comments, aimed at a wide range of strength. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() I don't worry about what the bots like. I'm still human so I like to play human moves ![]() ![]() Moves 49, 53 and 55 don't feel particularly good while I played them, but I thought I needed to do that because else white would get almost all the middle. It also (very) loosely connects my stones, or implies a connection. Well, the over concentration of Black after ![]() You also missed two double keimas. The idea of double keima is a human one. ![]() |
Author: | Ian Butler [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:48 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1) |
Bill Spight wrote: Ian Butler wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Some top of the head comments, aimed at a wide range of strength. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() I don't worry about what the bots like. I'm still human so I like to play human moves ![]() ![]() Moves 49, 53 and 55 don't feel particularly good while I played them, but I thought I needed to do that because else white would get almost all the middle. It also (very) loosely connects my stones, or implies a connection. Well, the over concentration of Black after ![]() You also missed two double keimas. The idea of double keima is a human one. ![]() Yes, though a new one to me. So thanks for bringing it to my attention! (I've heard of it before, but never in a real game for me) I thought I was playing the honte move by black 17 and erase part of the aji. But apparently not ![]() Of course, the combination with my bad invasion point and then getting overconcentrated was awful indeed. Probably a bigger mistake than black 17. Thank you, Bill. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1) |
Ian Butler wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Well, the over concentration of Black after ![]() You also missed two double keimas. The idea of double keima is a human one. ![]() Yes, though a new one to me. So thanks for bringing it to my attention! (I've heard of it before, but never in a real game for me) De nada. ![]() Quote: I thought I was playing the honte move by black 17 and erase part of the aji. But apparently not ![]() Well, ![]() ![]() Quote: Of course, the combination with my bad invasion point and then getting overconcentrated was awful indeed. Probably a bigger mistake than black 17. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Author: | Ian Butler [ Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1) |
mhlepore wrote: First, nice bowls! What kind are they? Shinkaya ![]() |
Author: | Ian Butler [ Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:51 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #1) |
here we are with the second game. Another win for jlt, an even larger one this time. Comments in the file based on review from us both together, with some added info from Leela. From my perspective, this is another game where I fell behind early on and never managed to catch up, always feeling I owe a few moves here and there. Jlt is probably too strong for me to beat. He is a good opponent for me to learn from, because he punishes my overplays and takes advantage of my weaknesses. This game I played too quickly, a lot quicker than last time. After a reading mistake in the lower left, I think I broke a little bit mentally and only recovered by the endgame. You can see that very easily in the way I play: before that mistake I make bold moves, sometimes even on the verge of overplay. After that reading mistake, I initially make some wild, unread, moves, but then slow down to passive, cowardly moves. Anyway, it was another fun experience, though. Playing a stronger player with such time settings is highly interesting and a joy to play! This jubango is going to be jlt's to lose, and even though I don't expect to win it, I do hope to snatch a victory in an even game, if that is at all possible ![]() EDIT: one more remark from my side: I need to learn to count better during a game. If I had known I was behind 25 points, I would do the decent thing and resign. However, I find it hard to count properly seeing that timer go down. I figured I was down by perhaps 15 points on the board, so with komi maybe 10 points or so. How wrong was I ![]() |
Author: | lightvector [ Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:11 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #2) |
Actually, move 79 doesn't work, and white is exactly correct to think that it simply doesn't work because white's D4 stones are strong enough with enough liberties. White just needed to respond a little differently. ![]() Solution: |
Author: | jlt [ Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #2) |
Thanks lightvector. So I won the game thanks to a move that doesn't work (probably other moves don't work either...). I add a variation to make sure I understand your comment. Edit: my variation is wrong, see lightvector's post below. @Ian Butler: I agree that you should count better during a game, but not that you should resign if you are behind by 25 points. I have seen many kyu players losing a "won" game, especially myself. |
Author: | dfan [ Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:45 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #2) |
To add to lightvector's excellent reply: when the D2 trick doesn't work, it's because of E2. So if you are strong enough to learn about D2, you should learn about the E2 response too; it's the standard critical response in this pattern, not some crazy tesuji that came up in just this game that you shouldn't be expected to remember. Also, I recommend not resigning while you are still a kyu player. At the 3k level I have both won and lost games that "should have been resigned". Learning not to be embarrassed about losing by 25 points is a skill that is worth acquiring. ![]() |
Author: | lightvector [ Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:49 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #2) |
jlt wrote: Thanks lightvector. So I won the game thanks to a move that doesn't work (probably other moves don't work either...). I add a variation to make sure I understand your comment. Interesting thought, but maybe take a second look at how White should respond to your alternative for ![]() ![]() Solution: |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:34 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #2) |
Some more comments. ![]() Courage, mes braves! Danton wrote: De l'audace! Encore de l'audace! Toujours de l'audace! |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:07 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #2) |
So Ian faces kadoban now. Go Ian! |
Author: | Ian Butler [ Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #2) |
Knotwilg wrote: So Ian faces kadoban now. Go Ian! ![]() Oh I'll fight like a lion to keep that from happening! ![]() |
Author: | Ian Butler [ Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:27 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #2) |
Third game. It was a good game until I misread a sequence. Then the game turns completely in white's advantage and ends in a pretty big victory for white. Comments up until move 91. So it's now 3-0. Probably time for a handicap. Three choices to continue: 1) Keep playing even. Though that'll probably turn into 10-0, not so interesting for jlt. 2) Playing without komi, me being black. Might help a bit, but victories have always been larger than 6 points. 3) 2 stone handicap games. Probably most equal of all choices. jlt prefers I decide, so I'll think about it, I also appreciate input from you guys! |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:23 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: jlt - Ian Butler Jubango (Game #3) |
Go for 2 |
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