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How to start thinking about enclosure approach? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17035 |
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Author: | Applebaps [ Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | How to start thinking about enclosure approach? |
This showed up in a recent game I played. In my actual game, I got muscled out of the corner. I don't even want to show you the moves, it was embarrassing. It started with Black hane at a and then it led to a ko, it was just a mess. I suppose I could have pincered White's approach to the 4-4, but I didn't want to just ignore such a brazen bump up against my corner. What I'd like to know is, what are some common approaches and responses to the 3-4 point keima corner enclosure? All I can find are joseki related to the 3-4 point, without the enclosure already in place. How might I start thinking about this situation? |
Author: | Gomoto [ Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:44 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach? |
Author: | TelegraphGo [ Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach? |
The reason you can't find any information on "approaching" a 3-4 enclosure is that it is strong. Approaching a group implies that you want to play stones near it, and playing close to strong groups (aka thickness) is rarely the correct direction. If you do find yourself playing near a 3-4 enclosure you usually should play some sort of attachment or shoulder hit, with the intent of overstrengthening the enclosure. In Gomoto's sequence, white gets a few stones outside and takes an extension, while black takes the corner really really thoroughly. This is a pretty standard idea. The thought is that if white had extended without attaching first, black would approach the group with an extension from the corner. If black plays such a move now, it will be attacked instead of building. It sounds like a good result for white, but if W never pressured from the outside like this, the enclosure does still have some invasion aji, way down the line. Black got rid of that, so it's actually a pretty even trade. Once attachment style fighting starts, just do your best to keep your stones either strong or well-sacrificed. The correct sequence is highly dependent on the rest of the other stones nearby, so I don't think it's really important to memorize any more than the line Gomoto gave. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:43 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach? |
You could browse some of the possible sequences at http://josekipedia.com/#path:qdtt |
Author: | EdLee [ Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Quote: I got muscled out of the corner. ... It was a mess... How might I start thinking about this situation? Quote: The correct sequence is highly dependent on the rest of the other stones nearby Hi Applebaps,To reiterate existing replies: studying contact fights is very helpful. Examples: Bruce Wilcox's Contact Fights; Go problems, life-and-death problems, tesuji problems; (human or AI) sequence references, with emphasis on local techniques. (Global evaluation is of course always important, too; another beast.) |
Author: | Kirby [ Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach? |
Applebaps wrote: This showed up in a recent game I played. In my actual game, I got muscled out of the corner. I don't even want to show you the moves, it was embarrassing. It started with Black hane at a and then it led to a ko, it was just a mess. I'm curious, now. I'll try to guess what happened.. Something like this? If that *is* what happened, you might consider this alternative: |
Author: | Applebaps [ Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:51 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach? |
Very helpful posts, everyone, thank you! Got my work cut out for me, then, as usual. |
Author: | atn [ Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:26 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach? |
There is a huge work done on sensei library for such questions. For example, I found this one: https://senseis.xmp.net/?35AttachmentAg ... rEnclosure ATN |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:56 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach? |
atn wrote: There is a huge work done on sensei library for such questions. For example, I found this one: https://senseis.xmp.net/?35AttachmentAg ... rEnclosure ATN There are at least two books about enclosure josekis. |
Author: | TheLemon [ Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:19 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach? |
With black a or b a simple response is white pulling back at c. Black b unsettles white while defending the corner whereas a lets white easily turn the probe into an extra long extension. With both a and b white can simply tenuki leaving a lot of aji, or sacrifice ![]() Evaluating the simple response is important, it is not great if the opponent can gain an edge by straightforward solid play. In this case pushing along a gives white a base while connecting with ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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