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| Can you find this amazing AI move http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=18382 |
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| Author: | Knotwilg [ Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Can you find this amazing AI move |
I was reviewing a game today and suddenly KataGo came up with a crazy move. I'll show the situation before the move, then progressively include tips Describing the situation: Describing the problem: What I did in the game, plus final hint |
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| Author: | baduk [ Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can you find this amazing AI move |
Ohh this shape looks too familiar,once you solved a similar problem you see it everywhere at first glance |
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| Author: | jlt [ Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can you find this amazing AI move |
This? |
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| Author: | Knotwilg [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can you find this amazing AI move |
jlt found it and apparently it's a kind of AI cliché already - I'm amazed! |
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| Author: | bernds [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can you find this amazing AI move |
Knotwilg wrote: jlt found it and apparently it's a kind of AI cliché already - I'm amazed! Don't know about AI cliche, but I think you see this sort of thing in problem books every now and then. I spotted the move too - I did not spot KataGo's continuation, however. The complications have really only started 
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can you find this amazing AI move |
Attachment: Capture.GIF [ 224.33 KiB | Viewed 13771 times ] It's not quite the same thing but I just happen to have this game on my desk as I write. The move was by a young Go Seigen, and is considered so unremarkable it did not even merit a comment. I have seen this sort of moves many times in real games, and there too it has often been uncommented. I suggest the following remarks apply: 1. It is a move of a kind you will see a lot of if you replay pro games (as per pro advice) rather than do lots of tsumego (as per amateur obsession). 2. You will see it very occasionally in tsumego problems but rather more often in tesuji colllections (which are, ironically, rarer), as it is a tactical contact-fighting move rather than a killer move. But if you replay lots of pro games you will realise it is a fairly common suji move rather than a tesuji, hence the usual lack of commentary. 3. The second line may the "line of defeat" but it is also often the line for (te)suji, and Sakata above all taught us that. His nickname of Razor came from slicing jugulars on the second line. What I am saying overall is that this is a frog-in-the-well situation. Said Kermit thinks the sky consists only of the blue circle he can see. (Sorry to be a wee bit Miss Piggy-ish about this.) |
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| Author: | Knotwilg [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can you find this amazing AI move |
Thx John. Yes, the "belly attachment" is a rather common line of play (suji). In the problem I posted, the belly is one line bigger, which makes a difference for me in spotting the move. I can fathom this is a piece of cake for a pro. So it's not an "AI move" just a move that I happened to discover that way. I'm a little skeptical of the triviality with which it is met but I guess I should replay more pro games so that I too can find this move with the blink of an eye. |
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| Author: | bernds [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can you find this amazing AI move |
Alright, I found the problem I was remembering. Graded Go Problems for Dan Players Volume 5, problem 154. I think the theme is quite similar. |
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| Author: | Knotwilg [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can you find this amazing AI move |
This? |
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| Author: | bernds [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can you find this amazing AI move |
Knotwilg wrote: Yes, that's one possibility.  and  are essentially miai for Black.
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| Author: | Harleqin [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can you find this amazing AI move |
But… |
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| Author: | bernds [ Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can you find this amazing AI move |
Harleqin wrote: But… Look for a |
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| Author: | Knotwilg [ Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can you find this amazing AI move |
More analysis at https://senseis.xmp.net/?BellyAttachmentLadderBreaker |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can you find this amazing AI move |
Harleqin wrote: But… No, because... |
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| Author: | Knotwilg [ Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can you find this amazing AI move |
Order of moves matters: |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can you find this amazing AI move |
Knotwilg wrote: Order of moves matters: I certainly agree that order of moves matter. I'm assuming that we play  as below when faced with  White does not have to play G14 to get a good result. Capturing C13 is just as good, and maybe better. |
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| Author: | bernds [ Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can you find this amazing AI move |
| Author: | Knotwilg [ Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can you find this amazing AI move |
This is IMO the correct refutation |
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