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| How to punish yose moves during fuseki http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3341 |
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| Author: | alejo [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:13 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | How to punish yose moves during fuseki | ||
I've just played a game where the 26th move was a monkey jump. And the 66th was a first line hane. Move 80 was another monkey jump. I couldn't help thinking it was premature but sente since ignoring it would give hima great opportunity into my territory. Should I ignore these moves? I must tell I didn't play my best on this game, but it was somewhat annoying Here it is:
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| Author: | Monadology [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to punish yose moves during fuseki |
I'm not even an SDK, but it seems to me that in the fuseki stages (and probably middle-game stages) a tenuki is going to give you more territory/influence than your opponent is going to gain from monkey jumps. Think about what a move around O17 would have accomplished if you ignored his first monkey jump (White's invasion at O17 later ends up accomplishing a lot). You can always go back to it later when you have sente and the monkey jump is worth more on a relative scale. |
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| Author: | Magicwand [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to punish yose moves during fuseki |
alejo wrote: I've just played a game where the 26th move was a monkey jump. And the 66th was a first line hane. Move 80 was another monkey jump. I couldn't help thinking it was premature but sente since ignoring it would give hima great opportunity into my territory. Should I ignore these moves? 26 and 66 there is nothing you can do. i would have ignored 80 though. then you could have been ahead. |
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| Author: | mw42 [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to punish yose moves during fuseki |
It's a question of whether or not it's the largest move and what can he do with a follow-up. Let's just say you ignore and he follows through by destroying all your territory on the bottom, who is better on this board: |
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| Author: | mw42 [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to punish yose moves during fuseki |
Magicwand wrote: alejo wrote: I've just played a game where the 26th move was a monkey jump. And the 66th was a first line hane. Move 80 was another monkey jump. I couldn't help thinking it was premature but sente since ignoring it would give hima great opportunity into my territory. Should I ignore these moves? 26 and 66 there is nothing you can do. i would have ignored 80 though. then you could have been ahead. Hmm, I agree that once black claimed the bottom at 26 he must continue to defend it at 66, but I think black could ignore at 26. I am disagreeing with Magicwand. 
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| Author: | alejo [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to punish yose moves during fuseki |
mw42 wrote: It's a question of whether or not it's the largest move and what can he do with a follow-ups. Let's just say you ignore and he follows through by destroying all your territory on the bottom, who is better on this board: Certainly, it seems like black has more potential... but white has more "solid" territory. Leaving this weakness at the bottom may turn out to be huge by the middle game... but following my opponent around the board wasn't a good idea. When I reviewed it, I could count with my hands the times I made sente moves... |
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to punish yose moves during fuseki |
I would have played 27 at r17, but listen to magicwand and not me.  In general, the sente move was already "his"; he normally gets to play it before you get to play the reverse sente. So it's not costing you points when he plays it early. What it does cost for him is ko threats; by playing it so early he no longer can use it as the huge ko threat that it would have been. |
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| Author: | fwiffo [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to punish yose moves during fuseki |
Endgame moves are endgame moves by virtue of the fact that they are small. But if the threatened follow-up is bigger than any other move on the board, then they are sente. But usually their follow-up is not big enough. Far be it from me to disagree with much stronger players, but  only threatens to erase a little potential territory at the bottom. It doesn't really threaten the life of any of your stones. How many points can he erase with another move there? Just eyeballing it, it's easily less than 10 points. On the other hand, look at the position of all the black stones. Black has HUGE potential in the top right quadrant of the board. Even something slow like Q17 secures more points than the follow-up to the monkey jump. Likewise, C17 is bigger than white's threat, and even that is too small and probably not sente. My instinct here would be to ignore the monkey jump and either expand/solidify the upper right framework. If he ignores you to do his follow-up, you can just start taking the whole board. Another option is to break up white's left side. If he ignores that, his upper left actually comes under attack.A couple somewhat off-topic notes about the game:  : Just connect solidly. The tiger's mouth leaves a ko threat and bad aji behind needlessly. Only make that sort of connection if you need it for eyespace or to prevent an invasion or something. : That hane is bad because the pincered white stone makes your shape too weak. Joseki is to simply extend. The 3-3 invasion after the pincer is different than the direct 3-3 invasion.
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| Author: | Monadology [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to punish yose moves during fuseki |
alejo wrote: Certainly, it seems like black has more potential... but white has more "solid" territory. Leaving this weakness at the bottom may turn out to be huge by the middle game... but following my opponent around the board wasn't a good idea. When I reviewed it, I could count with my hands the times I made sente moves... Sure it might turn out to be huge in 50 moves, but ask yourself this: A) Is there an immediate follow-up move that makes it big right now? B) Do you think your opponent has planned 50 moves ahead to make perfect use of it? If the answer to both is "No", the best you can do is keep it in mind as you play so that no such middle-game scenario occurs. You can't let your opponent have sente everytime there's the possibility that down the road their move will become important, especially if there's no concrete scenario you can see in which it will. Also, if you're concerned about white making solid territory, then make some of your own somehow. You could invade a corner or something, and keep sente to deal with the monkey jump if you really feel you need to. Once again, I'm weaker than pretty much anyone in this thread, but that's how I see it. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to punish yose moves during fuseki |
alejo wrote: I've just played a game where the 26th move was a monkey jump. And the 66th was a first line hane. Move 80 was another monkey jump. I couldn't help thinking it was premature but sente since ignoring it would give hima great opportunity into my territory. Should I ignore these moves? Just a quick response. Yose moves can be big, even big enough for the opening stage. That is particularly so if they are sente, and carry a big threat. There is no general answer as to whether ignore such moves or not. Each case is different. However, endgame plays during the opening are often too small. Such moves are self-punishing. It can be tempting to play sente just because they are there or to get caught up in a local fight and make a small play. Keep in mind my proverb: Tenuki is always an option.
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to punish yose moves during fuseki |
I just wanted to throw in that playing sente yose moves too early can often be aji keshi. certainly feels this way to me. I also used to get annoyed at yose moves in the opening, but once I realized that they would be his sente to play sooner or later anyway, and that they were aji keshi for my opponent, it stopped bothering me as much.
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| Author: | alejo [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to punish yose moves during fuseki |
Thank you for your suggestions... Seems like the general suggestion is to ignore it and play bigger moves. I'll give it a try next time something similar happens. fwiffo wrote: ... : That hane is bad because the pincered white stone makes your shape too weak. Joseki is to simply extend. The 3-3 invasion after the pincer is different than the direct 3-3 invasion.I knew it and realised just after playing, that the reason why I ended up playing Q14... I've already been punished before because of that hane. |
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| Author: | topazg [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to punish yose moves during fuseki |
alejo wrote: Thank you for your suggestions... Seems like the general suggestion is to ignore it and play bigger moves. I'll give it a try next time something similar happens. Bill's also highlighted on an important point: Yose moves are not explicitly endgame moves, nor is vice versa true. Yose moves are edge play moves, and in some cases they are playable at the early midgame - sometimes aji-keshi if too early (that doesn't mean don't respond to them though!), and sometimes simply good moves where no other sensible use of that aji exists (particularly when your opponent's local move to prevent them starts to become big enough to play anyway). I wouldn't have ignored 26 either, I'd have just thanked White for making me thick. |
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| Author: | tapir [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to punish yose moves during fuseki |
If you do not want to invade and reducing from the outside is sufficient for you then sente endgames moves can be played surprisingly early (I am sometimes surprised about their timing in pro games). Whatever best play is, consciously deciding to tenuki in such situations in the next say 10 games you play and trying to figure out the biggest move elsewhere may be a useful teaching experience to you, even if it results in losses. (You tend to follow around a bit.) All this said W26 is not even the best endgame move locally, see here. I would be happy about W66 because W66 at O2 is possible and locally better endgame for White if you ask me. |
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| Author: | pupukani [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to punish yose moves during fuseki |
The first monkeyjump was good for black, because after that there is absolutely no invasion! It makes black strong. Its gote, but it was whites sente anyway. I think its not bad to answer it, but tenuki is very good also. I would probably tenuki, because a monkey jump is rarely severe and cant hurt nothing but some little territory. Monkey was 11 points in sente(?) or something? 16? But at this point there MUST be bigger points, so tenuki is my opinion. |
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| Author: | golem7 [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to punish yose moves during fuseki |
As Bill said: such moves which are played too early tend to punish themselves. There is nothing wrong with answering if they are sente. As someone pointed out concerning , white could also have invaded your territory directly and gotten away with it (aji in lower right corner). This is much harder after the monkey jump sequence (although still possible on this board I guess, as blacks shape in lower right is really bad).Most of the time, the loss of aji and ko threats for your opponent is already your advantage. "Punishment" doesn't always mean an immediate game-deciding blow, but sometimes just minor differences (at least in our eyes). On that matter my favourite quote from the Ishida: "An unconditional loss of two points is unbearable." So instead of feeling uncomfortable, you should learn to welcome such moves and be grateful to your opponent for reducing his own options. Of course, if there is an urgent/huge move elsewhere on the board or the area you're defending is too small, tenuki can still be better. Always think about tenuki! 
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