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| Cross-cut fuseki http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7333 |
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| Author: | Annihilist [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Cross-cut fuseki |
This here is what we usually see as an opening. Each player claims two corner points adjacent to one another. Normal Occasionally, thouhg, this is seen Black may play the opposite corner. What are the advantages/disadvantages for Black choosing such a way to play? Why is it not seen often? Does a simpler or more complex game follow? Discuss. It doesn't matter which point is played (3-4, 4-4, etc.) for the sake of this discussion. |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cross-cut fuseki |
Annihilist wrote: What are the advantages/disadvantages for Black choosing such a way to play? Why is it not seen often? Does a simpler or more complex game follow? I don't think go is so well understood that we can definitely say a cross-cut fuseki has clear advantages or disadvantages. Every game of go is complex, I think. |
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| Author: | palapiku [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cross-cut fuseki |
My understanding is that diagonal fuseki (which is what Sensei's calls this formation) used to be more popular before the introduction of komi. Now Black has to be much more aggressive from the beginning, so he almost inevitably goes for parallel fuseki, creating a large framework (even with the first two moves!) and forcing White to invade. Basically, the temperature is lower in diagonal fuseki. It is more peaceful. And with komi, this is an advantage for White, which is why Black avoids it. |
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| Author: | lovelove [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cross-cut fuseki |
palapiku wrote: My understanding is that diagonal fuseki (which is what Sensei's calls this formation) used to be more popular before the introduction of komi. Now Black has to be much more aggressive from the beginning, so he almost inevitably goes for parallel fuseki, creating a large framework (even with the first two moves!) and forcing White to invade. Basically, the temperature is lower in diagonal fuseki. It is more peaceful. And with komi, this is an advantage for White, which is why Black avoids it. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cross-cut fuseki |
I have heard the opposite: a diagonal fuseki is a fighting fuseki. If you want to play for a moyo, don't play diagonal fuseki. If you want to play a fighting game, play diagonal fuseki. |
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| Author: | Phoenix [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cross-cut fuseki |
It's about small- versus large-scale. My understanding is that simply based on which corners are claimed, it's simply easier to build a large moyo and gain influence in general if your stones are on the same side of the board. In my experience games can get messy and fighty quicker with cross fusekis. Much like Kirby said. 
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| Author: | palapiku [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cross-cut fuseki |
Kirby wrote: I have heard the opposite: a diagonal fuseki is a fighting fuseki. If you want to play for a moyo, don't play diagonal fuseki. If you want to play a fighting game, play diagonal fuseki. Sure, there will be fights, but each fight will be less valuable. Lower temperature. |
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| Author: | Annihilist [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cross-cut fuseki |
palapiku wrote: My understanding is that diagonal fuseki (which is what Sensei's calls this formation) used to be more popular before the introduction of komi. Now Black has to be much more aggressive from the beginning, so he almost inevitably goes for parallel fuseki, creating a large framework (even with the first two moves!) and forcing White to invade. So it's almost advantageous for black to play this in a game with no komi, i.e. 5k vs 6k or something like that.
Basically, the temperature is lower in diagonal fuseki. It is more peaceful. And with komi, this is an advantage for White, which is why Black avoids it. |
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| Author: | snorri [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cross-cut fuseki |
lovelove wrote: palapiku wrote: My understanding is that diagonal fuseki (which is what Sensei's calls this formation) used to be more popular before the introduction of komi. Now Black has to be much more aggressive from the beginning, so he almost inevitably goes for parallel fuseki, creating a large framework (even with the first two moves!) and forcing White to invade. Basically, the temperature is lower in diagonal fuseki. It is more peaceful. And with komi, this is an advantage for White, which is why Black avoids it. That's white's choice, of course, and although it's a fine one, with high komi, white doesn't have to take the aggressive approach, which is one reason this  is common in the diagonal pattern. I don't things are always as simple as saying that "X fuseki leads to fighting" this early. It takes two players to make a game.  . |
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| Author: | Splatted [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cross-cut fuseki |
What I read was that diagonal games are generally lower scoring for both sides, which makes komi proportionately larger. I think this is what palapiku meant, but I'm not sure; I definitely wouldn't describe diagonal games as more peaceful or lower temperature. |
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| Author: | Phoenix [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cross-cut fuseki |
Right! Fights might be less big, but since making a moyo is more difficult and things are more small-scale, every small gain or loss is magnified and more important. 
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| Author: | SmoothOper [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cross-cut fuseki--> Diagonal Fuseki |
I have seen them called Diagonal fuseki's, there are any number of fuseki based on these opening. In general though both white and black have to cooperate to play these, though some players who really like diagonal Fuseki can approximate them with approaches on 3 rather than taking the other corner. At which point white has the option to tenuki and let black have the corner. Something like I think black really has to want the diagonal fuseki to play this way though. |
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| Author: | snorri [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cross-cut fuseki--> Diagonal Fuseki |
SmoothOper wrote: I have seen them called Diagonal fuseki's, there are any number of fuseki based on these opening. In general though both white and black have to cooperate to play these, though some players who really like diagonal Fuseki can approximate them with approaches on 3 rather than taking the other corner. At which point white has the option to tenuki and let black have the corner. Something like I think black really has to want the diagonal fuseki to play this way though. The goal of  is not necessarily to play a diagonal opening. It can be more like a probe, to try to get either a double approach or a mini-Chinese opening:(Also, in your second diagram, I don't think  is a good idea, but that's a different topic.)
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| Author: | SmoothOper [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cross-cut fuseki--> Diagonal Fuseki |
snorri wrote: (Also, in your second diagram, I don't think is a good idea, but that's a different topic.)OK. I do need to find a better double approach technique, but that is the idea. It is interesting that through tewari you can derive the the mini-chinese. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cross-cut fuseki |
If there were an advantage to Black to the diagonal fuseki, White could prevent it by playing in the diagonal corner first. The parallel fuseki became more popular after the introduction of komi, because of the choices of White. Before the days of komi White generally made an approach with  instead of playing in the open corner, to complicate matters.
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| Author: | gowan [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cross-cut fuseki |
As for why the diagonal fuseki are prone to fighting, consider that after move 4 there are two large sector lines, one "black" the other "white" running between the diagonally opposite corners. At this point all four stones that have been played are inside the opponent's sector lines! |
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| Author: | Phoenix [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cross-cut fuseki |
gowan wrote: As for why the diagonal fuseki are prone to fighting, consider that after move 4 there are two large sector lines, one "black" the other "white" running between the diagonally opposite corners. At this point all four stones that have been played are inside the opponent's sector lines! Sector lines are a tool for detecting the threat of enclosure, aren't they? Sector lines that long should essentially be disregarded in favor of a good continuation along the sides, I think. |
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