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A match against Fuego http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7543 |
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Author: | tsuhre [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:22 am ] |
Post subject: | A match against Fuego |
It's been bothering me for quite some time that I can't seem to make any headway against the go playing program Fuego (an attachment of the gogui). I think even in the best match I even came close to winning legitimatley on ( by legitimately I mean never going back to fix mistakes) I still lost by 7.5 moku. This is incredibly disheartening for me, especially since I've heard that intermediate level players can regularly beat the computer programs with ease. So, In a fit of frustration yesterday, I gave myself 9 handicap stones just to get some enjoyment out of finally crushing the computer. Unfortunately for me, Fuego (W) resigned after a blacks play at 123, so I still don't get any satisfaction form this match. I'm posting it here, not because it was a particularly good or inventive match, but because I think I made relatively few mistakes throughout the course of the game. Let me know what you guys think. |
Author: | billywoods [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:53 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
I'm only 4 kyu, but a few notes:
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Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:14 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
Seeing how much you lose to a computer by is not a good metric. Most decent computers will only play so as to win by a small margin, and won't focus on increasing their lead when they're ahead like a typical human would. So you and I could both play to it and lose by the same amount of points. Also, computers have gotten quite a bit stronger over the past few years. The top computer program plays at a 6d level now, and Fuego plays at a 1d level if I'm not mistaken. They're definitely tougher to beat than before. I wouldn't recommend using Fuego as your training bot. Instead, I think you should make an account on KGS (if you haven't) and play there. There are other beginners on the site, as well as weak bots that are almost always available for you to play against (a lot of bots on the site don't even play ranked games, so you don't have to worry about rank if that scares you). I think you'll learn a lot more from that (and from reading sensei's library, if you aren't) than from playing Fuego. Anyway, billywoods covered what I wanted to cover regarding the actual game. I think it will be particularly helpful if you pay attention to his comments for move 11. |
Author: | lovelove [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:28 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
Your game is actually a 10 stone handicap game, and you have a bad habit of following your opponent's moves. |
Author: | tsuhre [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:49 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
billywoods wrote: I'm only 4 kyu, but a few notes:
Thanks for the tips! This was exactly what I was looking for just in terms of amateur mistakes I was making on the board. I thought I might just run through some of what you talked about and what I was thinking at the time. [list][*]Move 3: Ah yes, the elephants eye. I actually regretted this move as soon as I played it. [*]Move 11: I realize now that I didn't actually have to play this move. (actually I realized this mid-game when the same situation occurred in the lower left corner. I'll admit that I never even considered R8 or R7 which seems silly in retrospect. [*]Move 25: I have no idea what I was doing here either. To be honest it was not a particularly rational match. [*]Move 35: I think I realized this and was more concerned with cutting white off. Looking back though, if that was my goal I should have just played Q5 directly [*]Move 49: I think I was concerned with preserving shape here. Is a white play at R2 tsumego? I would probably respond with a hane at R1. Dusk Eagle wrote: Seeing how much you lose to a computer by is not a good metric. Most decent computers will only play so as to win by a small margin, and won't focus on increasing their lead when they're ahead like a typical human would. So you and I could both play to it and lose by the same amount of points. Also, computers have gotten quite a bit stronger over the past few years. The top computer program plays at a 6d level now, and Fuego plays at a 1d level if I'm not mistaken. They're definitely tougher to beat than before. I wouldn't recommend using Fuego as your training bot. Instead, I think you should make an account on KGS (if you haven't) and play there. There are other beginners on the site, as well as weak bots that are almost always available for you to play against (a lot of bots on the site don't even play ranked games, so you don't have to worry about rank if that scares you). I think you'll learn a lot more from that (and from reading sensei's library, if you aren't) than from playing Fuego. Anyway, billywoods covered what I wanted to cover regarding the actual game. I think it will be particularly helpful if you pay attention to his comments for move 11. Thanks for the advice! I had suspected that fuego played pretty minimally for a while since the score was always so close. I completely agree though, It's a pointless exercise to compare yourself in skill level to a computer program. What I'm really concerned with here is how I approached individual situations, and what I could do to make those approaches stronger. (as you say, billywoods covers this excellently) I'm suprised though: I'll admit that I never really thought playing endgame moves like 11 was that detrimental to the rest of the board. I'm still working myself up to try out KGS. I've been playing on Flyordie for about 6 months now just because it was an easier GUI for me to work with. lovelove wrote: Your game is actually a 10 stone handicap game, and you have a bad habit of following your opponent's moves. Hahaha, that makes these mistakes even worse then. In this game I almost exclusively followed my opponent, which I know is terrible form. In my defense, I would never play this way in a live match, but I would also never have 10 handicap stones in a live match. |
Author: | topazg [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:09 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
Some thoughts ![]() |
Author: | tsuhre [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:03 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
topazg wrote: Some thoughts ![]() Thanks a bunch topazg ![]() |
Author: | xed_over [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:44 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
tsuhre wrote: Unfortunately for me, Fuego (W) resigned after a blacks play at 123, so I still don't get any satisfaction form this match. most programs have an option to "not resign". You may have to search for it. |
Author: | tsuhre [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:43 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
xed_over wrote: tsuhre wrote: Unfortunately for me, Fuego (W) resigned after a blacks play at 123, so I still don't get any satisfaction form this match. most programs have an option to "not resign". You may have to search for it. Good to know ![]() |
Author: | Mike Novack [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:17 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
Do not turn off "allowed to resign" when playing against any of the MCTS based programs. Forcing the program to play on when it has concluded "hopeless" will not give you much satisfaction nor will it give you an idea of the margin of difference. Once there are no moves with probability of winning higher than other moves it will begin making truly silly moves. Remember, it ignores "by how much" (won or lost) and so forced to play on it isn't making plays that will cause hold down the margin of defeat. |
Author: | oren [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:27 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
Mike Novack wrote: Forcing the program to play on when it has concluded "hopeless" will not give you much satisfaction nor will it give you an idea of the margin of difference. Once there are no moves with probability of winning higher than other moves it will begin making truly silly moves. They have programmed in VERY human behavior then. ![]() |
Author: | xed_over [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:51 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
Mike Novack wrote: Forcing the program to play on when it has concluded "hopeless" will not give you much satisfaction it gives me satisfaction ![]() |
Author: | tsuhre [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:07 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
In a way it's somewhat irrelevant anyway. I might eke some short term satisfaction out of crushing the computer, but it wont help my overall strength. As mike says, changing the option to do not resign changes how the computer plays and is therefore not a good determining factor in how much I've surpassed it. |
Author: | billywoods [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
tsuhre wrote: Is a white play at R2 tsumego? What I meant was that your corner group was very small, had few liberties, and had a cutting point - there's no guarantee it's alive, unless you've read it out to check that it's alive. If you're strong enough, you should do this sort of reading as a matter of practice (reading problems are called tsumego, and are often simple corner life-and-death problems anyway). If you're not strong enough, you should definitely at least notice that you're close to dying, and consider putting in an extra securing move. I've put some thoughts in the spoiler below to show you how I'd think it out, but if reading is still very difficult for you, don't take them too seriously. ![]() Edit: typos... |
Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
Black can't even make seki. This may look like a seki, but notice what happens after white plays 'a' and 'b'. Black suddenly has one liberty, so he dies. Of course, black could play 'c' at any point before white gets 'a' and 'b', but then black is left with a dead shape inside, so he's dead. |
Author: | karaklis [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:55 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
Dusk Eagle wrote: Fuego plays at a 1d level if I'm not mistaken Last time I downloaded it, it was around 6k. Has it improved so much since then? |
Author: | billywoods [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
Dusk Eagle wrote: Black can't even make seki. This may look like a seki, but notice what happens after white plays 'a' and 'b'. Black suddenly has one liberty, so he dies. Of course, black could play 'c' at any point before white gets 'a' and 'b', but then black is left with a dead shape inside, so he's dead. You're right. In my hurry to read it out and put a full solution together, I was too hasty. Thanks. ![]() |
Author: | tsuhre [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
Dusk Eagle wrote: Black can't even make seki. This may look like a seki, but notice what happens after white plays 'a' and 'b'. Black suddenly has one liberty, so he dies. Of course, black could play 'c' at any point before white gets 'a' and 'b', but then black is left with a dead shape inside, so he's dead. Thanks for the solution. It would make a good life or death problem. |
Author: | hyperpape [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
karaklis wrote: Dusk Eagle wrote: Fuego plays at a 1d level if I'm not mistaken Last time I downloaded it, it was around 6k. Has it improved so much since then? |
Author: | Mike Novack [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:43 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: A match against Fuego |
I perhaps wasn't being clear enough by what I meant as "silly". To put it into words, the MCTS algorithm results in "make the move that has a higher probability of winning than other moves". But if the probability of winning for all moves is close to zero then the differences between these probabilities are also close to zero and there is no way for the algorithm to distinguish between "hopeless, but not making things worse" and "hopeless and making things worse". That is why important to always allow these programs to resign. It's not so much that the program has concluded "can't win the game" but also "I can't distinguish between sensible and ridiculous moves". In other words, the MCTS algorithm doesn't work in this region. If you have experience playing against these programs you will note that a human might resign earlier. Toward the end of a game that it will lose the program will make "insulting" attacks, play moves that will work only if responded against very poorly or not at all. The reason is that from its calculation the probability of that isn't zero. With experience playing against these programs you will learn to recognize when close to the end of the game whether the program "thinks" it will win or lose. Unnecessary safety moves that cost a point or two means the program has the game in hand while attacks that would work only against a bad mistake means the program "knows" it has lost. |
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