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How do you change your strategy as Black and White?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8738		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  shoryuu [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  How do you change your strategy as Black and White?
I notice pros play different styles depending on whether they're first or second. Though some still play the same for both. How should I decide upon which different styles to play and how does playing first affect the strategy? I cant find any book or website that explains the nuances between both.

I used to play Low Chinese opening for Black and tried to do the same as White, unless of course the opponent stopped me at 4-4 and Komoku. Im kinda testing Sanrensei as White. So far so good. Though I'm not sure if it actually makes a difference. What do you think?
Author:  Kirby [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you change your strategy as Black and White?
Maybe select your strategy based on the moves your opponent plays rather than only color...? Eg. you don't have to be set on doing san-ren-sei if your opponent plays a certain way in the beginning.

With this strategy, naturally, white will be responding more to the way black plays, as white plays second... Doesn't have to stay that way, of course. White may have sente and adopt a strategy later in the game, anyway.
Author:  moyoaji [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you change your strategy as Black and White?
I used to play nirensei (double star-point) as white to try to get a balanced position so black wouldn't have an obvious follow-up move against my position and then I would play either a variant of the mini Chinese or low Chinese as black, but now I try to play the low Chinese regardless of whether I am white or black.

It can be harder to play the fuseki you want as white because your opponent might decide to approach on his 3rd move and disrupt you, but usually my opponent will play the sanrensei or something and I can play the opening I want.
Author:  snorri [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you change your strategy as Black and White?
I think it's a great question. Most books only cover openings from black's point of view. I think Go Seigen has a book on White Fuseki《白布局》

First of all, it's not clear it matters for players who aren't sensitive to komi. I strongly suspect anyone under high dan who thinks they is delusional, but that's another story. But for the sake of argument, assuming you are...

With no komi, go ahead and play like the ancients. It worked for them, after all. Far be it for me to criticize players with Shus or Sakus in their names... :)

With large komi, white can opt to play a steady game and decide it's up to black to try to create a dynamic enough situation to be able to pay komi. You can even play that "slow" Shusaku diagonal as white. It's fine. Black, on the other hand, has a problem. So that's why you see these kind of fast, tight framework building ideas like mini-Chinese today. There are pros (not all!) who think it's intolerable to let white play something easily settled.

As amateurs, we have a lot of flexibility. My attitude as white is to maintain pace. So I wouldn't play 2 3-4s if black plays nirensei, but I might if black plays 2 3-4s himself. Naively, symmetrical (4-4 or 3-3) is fast and asymmetrical (3-4, 5-4, 5-3) is slow. But you don't have to outrun the bear, just your opponent. I don't know if there is any validity to that theory, but I'm an amateur and unless someone disproves it in a way that I understand, I'm likely to keep doing that.
Author:  billywoods [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you change your strategy as Black and White?
shoryuu wrote:
I'm not sure if it actually makes a difference.

There are only 6.5 points of komi. I probably make about 70 points' worth of mistakes throughout a game - I just rely on my opponent making a few more. I don't think changing my strategy based on something so minor is very efficient. Put it this way: by the time it's relevant to your play, you'll know it, and you'll know what to try doing.
Author:  mhlepore [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you change your strategy as Black and White?
In my view there are several differences. Of course everyone is different and I am not strong enough to speak with authority.

1) If you like moyos, they come more naturally while playing black. Playing sanrensei as white seems to be viewed as slow among strong players - even those who like moyos. It is hard to map out a vast network of stones when your opponent is always one move ahead of you.

2) Because black as the first mover has the initiative, white often spends the opening trying to blunt black's plans. For example, there are many counters to the Chinese and sanrensei openings.

3) If you like playing for territory and creating many small groups, you may be more comfortable playing white because the total score will be low and komi becomes more important.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you change your strategy as Black and White?
A tip from Go Seigen: Don't let your opponent have an easy opening.

The fact that Black has the initiative is normally enough to pose problems for White, but White usually has to show more enterprise.
Author:  Phoenix [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you change your strategy as Black and White?
I find the aim for White in the opening should be to frustrate Black's plans. Destroy the first move initiative early, don't let your opponent get a superior formation, make it your game.

Doing this depends entirely on the moves your opponent plays and your responses to them. This sentiment also sums up Go as a whole, so the opening should come naturally. :mrgreen:
Author:  Shinkenjoe [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you change your strategy as Black and White?
I think it actually makes a difference for us amatuers, because often the komi is too small for us. If black has opening patterns memorized, which are kind of trick plays, which are hard to answer with standard opening repertoire, at the start of the middlegame white is often behind more than 20 points. Having to rely on aggresive (over)plays that early is demanding, so you must try not to allow black an easy opening.
Author:  Alguien [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you change your strategy as Black and White?
As B I have fun deciding what kind of game I'll be playing from my first stone.

As W I put some stones and wait for the fun to start after five or more stones are on the board.

Other than that, pretty much the same.
Author:  shapenaji [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you change your strategy as Black and White?
My favorite fuseki is one that you can only play as black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Center Shimari
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . 3 , 1 . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As black you get 1 corner, the center shimari, and 1-2 approaches on other corners. It's very powerful, but completely unplayable as white.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you change your strategy as Black and White?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Center Kakari
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 2 , 1 . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So there! :mrgreen:
Author:  shoryuu [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you change your strategy as Black and White?
Thanks for the input. From this I gauge that most people (that commented at least) don't really have a fixed strategy or opening for that matter but just a sketchy idea on how to play as Black/ White. Ah well. Centre shimari was uber helpful tho! I think I shall start using it! ^^
Author:  wineandgolover [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you change your strategy as Black and White?
shoryuu wrote:
Thanks for the input. From this I gauge that most people (that commented at least) don't really have a fixed strategy or opening for that matter but just a sketchy idea on how to play as Black/ White. Ah well. Centre shimari was uber helpful tho! I think I shall start using it! ^^

I thought you received good input, overall. Some people try to disrupt black's game plan, others go about their own. Still others thinks that except at top levels, it makes no difference.

As white I used to play to disrupt black, but now I play the same first two moves whether I am black or white. Three, if possible.
Author:  skydyr [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you change your strategy as Black and White?
billywoods wrote:
shoryuu wrote:
I'm not sure if it actually makes a difference.

There are only 6.5 points of komi. I probably make about 70 points' worth of mistakes throughout a game - I just rely on my opponent making a few more. I don't think changing my strategy based on something so minor is very efficient. Put it this way: by the time it's relevant to your play, you'll know it, and you'll know what to try doing.


One thing that made me a lot more sensitive to komi was playing a series of 13x13 games against strong opponents. Because the board is smaller, komi feels proportionally larger and really must be taken into account even at the SDK level.
Author:  billywoods [ Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How do you change your strategy as Black and White?
skydyr wrote:
One thing that made me a lot more sensitive to komi was playing a series of 13x13 games against strong opponents. Because the board is smaller, komi feels proportionally larger and really must be taken into account even at the SDK level.

There I agree. It probably explains why I'm awful at small-board games too. :)
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