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Fuseki into middle game. A tricky path?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9148		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Chaos [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Fuseki into middle game. A tricky path?
When I play Go,I feel like I play well in opening game.
I also feel like I play well in middle game, and especially well in late middle game.
however-
Somewhere between Opening and Middle game, I feel as if I lose a lot of points. Sometimes it can snowball very badly.
It's not a problem I'd like to be stuck with, and so, this thread is for tricks and tips on a healthy transition from opening to middle.
Author:  skydyr [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki into middle game. A tricky path?
Do you have a game example we could look at?
Author:  Chaos [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki into middle game. A tricky path?
This was my last one,
It was really bad actually, Aside from the problem I stated, I was under-aggressive whenever it counted, and missed a pretty simple life and death or two. But, Those things I can fix.>>;
I feel like going from opening to middle is my biggest concern.
http://eidogo.com/#3Yf5nsOb
Author:  Chaos [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki into middle game. A tricky path?
http://eidogo.com/#48LtKfxZF
Eidogo doesn't seem to want to work for me.
Here's a second game, I thought it was a lot better.
Author:  skydyr [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki into middle game. A tricky path?
You can take this with a grain of salt, as I'm probably around your level, but it looks like you tenuki too early at times and are prone to overextending or leaving aji behind that your opponent can exploit later. You might consider trying to play a very solid and honte game, and reduce later when there is lots more aji left in your opponent's position than yours, for a change of pace.

I also get the idea that you are trying to leave your opponent with nothing, and develop on all sides, which you don't have time to do. Just pick the better side and leave the worse one to your opponent, and make sure you don't let your shape get broken. It's okay if they take this territory, or that one. You only need to win by one point.
Author:  skydyr [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki into middle game. A tricky path?
Also, consider explicitly not trying to kill when you attack.
Author:  Chaos [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki into middle game. A tricky path?
Thanks,
It makes a lot of sense,actually.
Lately I've been trying to find the earliest possible good tenuki spots, but I may not be good enough to stretch them as far as I'm stretching them right now.

Admitted,sometimes I'm alittle bit addicted to killing, I want to maintain an aggressive style too.
I'll keep all you said in mind in my next games.
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki into middle game. A tricky path?
Some general points:
  • Improve your recognition of good shape. You often miss moves which would put you in good shape and or exploit the shape of your opponent's stones. [Solve more Tesuji problems]
  • You have the habit of creating many weak groups. This often combines with not playing good shape which has eye-potential or other benefits. If you make a new group it should often have more purpose than just claiming an area. Does it attack something? Does it prevent your opponent from an extension while not putting you in danger to get attacked yourself? See the fourth point. [Solve more Tesuji and Tsumego problems]
  • Know, how to defend your groups in need. This mostly means you attach onto your opponent's stones. Sometimes you try to defend but you only give your opponent points and don't get good shape out of it. See the first point. [Solve more Tesuji and Tsumego problems]
  • Don't play close to strong positions. Several times, you played close to a strong position from your opponent as if you were afraid, that he might extend and get territory. Don't always fear what your opponent might get but see what you got in exchange for his strong position. [Replay professional games]
  • An attack is much more successful when you have strong positions. Don't leave weaknesses behind and then try to attack strongly. [Replay professional games and do more Tesuji and Tsumego problems]

Some more detailed points:
  • Don't force your opponent to make a Ponnuki shape! See the first point above. [Replay professional games]
  • The Keima shape quite like the large (two-point) jump leave behind cutting points. So don't run away with these shapes, when you have a weak group. [Replay professional games]

The games with some comments:





Have fun : )
Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki into middle game. A tricky path?
Chaos wrote:
Somewhere between Opening and Middle game, I feel as if I lose a lot of points. Sometimes it can snowball very badly.
It's not a problem I'd like to be stuck with, and so, this thread is for tricks and tips on a healthy transition from opening to middle.


This sounds like a lack of planning. The opening is preparation for the middle game. It is not just a question of finding big moves or good moves.

I would suggest taking time around move 30 to assess the position and make a plan. Think big. Then do a reassessment around move 50 and consider possible new goals. This is in line with Jowa's Advice ( viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7508 ). :)

Good luck!
Author:  skydyr [ Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki into middle game. A tricky path?
Chaos wrote:
When I play Go,I feel like I play well in opening game.
I also feel like I play well in middle game, and especially well in late middle game.
however-
Somewhere between Opening and Middle game, I feel as if I lose a lot of points. Sometimes it can snowball very badly.
It's not a problem I'd like to be stuck with, and so, this thread is for tricks and tips on a healthy transition from opening to middle.


Out of curiousity, what makes you feel that you play well in the opening? My impression based on those two games is that issues from the opening cause the transition problems, which cause the middle game problems. Sometimes you can fight it out, sometimes you can't.
Author:  Chaos [ Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki into middle game. A tricky path?
Well, that's probably because I've never studied opening, then started studying it exclusively the past few weeks in an attempt to gain strength.
I figured "Hey it was HORRIBLE before, so it should be getting better very quickly!^^"
But, it doesn't come as a shock to me if that isn't actually the case.
I just thought my opening looked alright in comparison to the things I've been studying,
It made me think "the followthrough on the opening is what must be bad"

I've also just started learning joseki as well. I'm a bit late to the party, maybe. :study:
Author:  skydyr [ Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki into middle game. A tricky path?
Chaos wrote:
Well, that's probably because I've never studied opening, then started studying it exclusively the past few weeks in an attempt to gain strength.
I figured "Hey it was HORRIBLE before, so it should be getting better very quickly!^^"
But, it doesn't come as a shock to me if that isn't actually the case.
I just thought my opening looked alright in comparison to the things I've been studying,
It made me think "the followthrough on the opening is what must be bad"

I've also just started learning joseki as well. I'm a bit late to the party, maybe. :study:


I've certainly noticed for myself that when I try and integrate something new, I can do worse than I did previously until enough games have gone by that I have a better grasp of that concept.

I have mixed feelings about joseki. In a sense, knowing the right moves in a sequence is less important that coming up with a result that works with your other stones. I guess there's a gap between knowing almost none and knowing enough for all strategic situations that can cause problems. The why of the move and sequence is often more important than the move itself.
Author:  Chaos [ Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki into middle game. A tricky path?
I'm certain Ive gone down in rank since starting to study these things. Though I'm sure it will be worth it once I get it all sorted.
And,I agree.
Joseki is tricky to learn. Right now I've decided that I'm using joseki study to better understand the flow of the stones, rather than strictly remembering them.(Though I've memorized a good few.)
"What sort of moves have potential to develop in what ways?"
If I do badly in a corner exchange I will usually dedicate a bit more study to that specific joseki pattern, see if I messed up, see what else I could have done.

Go is far too tricky of a game to rely only on precise pre-determined moves. But the more of them you know, the easier it is to see exactly what you should be doing.
It's important to remember that Joseki is really only the beggining of the fight.
Author:  Chaos [ Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki into middle game. A tricky path?
Bill Spight wrote:
Chaos wrote:
Somewhere between Opening and Middle game, I feel as if I lose a lot of points. Sometimes it can snowball very badly.
It's not a problem I'd like to be stuck with, and so, this thread is for tricks and tips on a healthy transition from opening to middle.


This sounds like a lack of planning. The opening is preparation for the middle game. It is not just a question of finding big moves or good moves.

I would suggest taking time around move 30 to assess the position and make a plan. Think big. Then do a reassessment around move 50 and consider possible new goals. This is in line with Jowa's Advice ( viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7508 ). :)

Good luck!

I think this piece of advice especially helped me.
So special thanks Spight! xP
But thanks to everyone. My stones will be placed a level deeper for your help.
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