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 Post subject: Re: Why is pro Go in Japan gender segregated?
Post #21 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:29 am 
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Faro wrote:
I was just wondering if anyone could explain why Go is gender segregated in Japan (maybe Korea and China too, I don't know much about the pro systems there.) I won't bother typing out all the benefits of having men and women competing together, because I feel like we could all come up with a sizable list, I just don't see why they haven't gotten rid of "Men's Honinbo" and "Women's Honinbo" and just have "Honinbo."


Responding to the original question, you could find preliminary matches for every major tournament in the last couple of years:

http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/kisei/040.html

Female players are written with red higlight.

If you need to look up any of the names,

http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/player/index.html

And to check any players rating, use mamuma's table (probably the best. Ever)

oren wrote:
Fujisawa Rina has stated her goal is to make it to one of the major title's leagues, and she knows it's going to be very difficult. However, there is no system bias against her or any female in any of the tournaments in Japan.


That's interesting, because according my analysis of the preliminaries of every tournament listed, she is arguably the best peforming female professional (in open tournaments) very recently.

Maybe the secret is preschool kids and toddlers. Unless this is a terrible miscalculation, by the age of 7 your mind usually has already been somewhat polluted with various stereotypes (including gender-based ones).

Anyway, this may be going off topic again. Back to the original theme, I had assumed that in Japan specifically, females are allowed to participate in the open qualification, but barely any have ever done this. This is due to the fact that, in a nutshell, if you can't even make it to the A-league as an insei and _Stay_ there, you stand almost no chance of passing the exam (not to say this is a hard and fast rule). I haven't found one female insei who managed to do this searching through the past records.

Ironically, my impression was that professional Igo in Japan is probably slightly less gender-segregated than Korea and China, so the topic may inadvertently seem just a little unfair to some (assuming my original assumption is on the right track).

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Post #22 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:20 pm 
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gowan wrote:
but societal in Japan there is definitely bias against women.
Hi Gowan, I heard (a rumor) that in Japan, there's some law that requires that the husband's salary be deposited directly into either the wife's bank account, or at least a joint account between the couple. Or, maybe some companies have this policy ? Have you heard of anything about this ?

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Post #23 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:27 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
gowan wrote:
but societal in Japan there is definitely bias against women.
Hi Gowan, I heard (a rumor) that in Japan, there's some law that requires that the husband's salary be deposited directly into either the wife's bank account, or at least a joint account between the couple. Or, maybe some companies have this policy ? Have you heard of anything about this ?


It would not surprise me if some companies had that policy. Japan is predominantly a Buddhist country, and in traditional Buddhism the wife controls the family finances. :)

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Post #24 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:30 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
gowan wrote:
but societal in Japan there is definitely bias against women.
Hi Gowan, I heard (a rumor) that in Japan, there's some law that requires that the husband's salary be deposited directly into either the wife's bank account, or at least a joint account between the couple. Or, maybe some companies have this policy ? Have you heard of anything about this ?

Could be, might be in certain circles. Is or was not uncommon, not only in Japan. But I doubt this applies in general. If it was true, then why doesn't Japan have a female prime minister?

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Post #25 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:55 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
gowan wrote:
but societal in Japan there is definitely bias against women.
Hi Gowan, I heard (a rumor) that in Japan, there's some law that requires that the husband's salary be deposited directly into either the wife's bank account, or at least a joint account between the couple. Or, maybe some companies have this policy ? Have you heard of anything about this ?

Nonsense. Japanese banks do not even allow joint accounts. A fairly frequent topic on variety shows and so on is how much money wives hide from their husbands and how much husbands hide from their wives! :)

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Post #26 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:59 pm 
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sybob wrote:
Could be, might be in certain circles. Is or was not uncommon, not only in Japan. But I doubt this applies in general. If it was true, then why doesn't Japan have a female prime minister?


Look at Bill's comment (although I don't think that's because Buddhist ---- even Shinto households)

You are making the mistake of assuming that being in charge/control of the household expenses means the same thing as that would imply in our culture. Sorry, but it doesn't. Women can be expected to "run the household" and still be in a submerged/subservient position.

Running the household could be considered beneath a proper man's concern (only women do THAT)

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Post #27 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:17 pm 
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Mike Novack wrote:
Running the household could be considered beneath a proper man's concern (only women do THAT)


Very much this. You'll still get some comments about getting a proper job if you're male and the homemaker in Ireland. It's getting better year on year but such attitudes only change slowly.

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Post #28 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:39 pm 
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ez4u wrote:
Nonsense. Japanese banks do not even allow joint accounts.
Hi Dave, forget the joint accounts; just direct deposit of the husband's salary to the wife's account -- you have not heard of anything like this ? :)

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Post #29 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:43 pm 
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Quote:
Running the household could be considered beneath a proper man's concern (only women do THAT)
Have people also heard of this: the wife sets a "curfew" time: after which she would lock the door so the husband cannot enter the home; he'd have to stay the night in a motel, etc. ( Not necessarily unique to Japan. Could happen in other countries or cultures, too. )

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Post #30 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:44 pm 
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Mike Novack wrote:
You are making the mistake of assuming that being in charge/control of the household expenses means the same thing as that would imply in our culture. Sorry, but it doesn't. Women can be expected to "run the household" and still be in a submerged/subservient position.

Running the household could be considered beneath a proper man's concern (only women do THAT)
Absolutely. Actually, even in the US, women control a majority of household spending, but we're not a female dominated society.

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Post #31 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:48 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
even in the US, women control a majority of household spending
Is this an impression, or an educated guess, or is there some citation or census evidence ?

( In other words, how do you know ?
Approx. 117 million households in the U.S. in 2009.
I'm not challenging this claim; I'm curious to see the data. )

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Post #32 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:56 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
ez4u wrote:
Nonsense. Japanese banks do not even allow joint accounts.
Hi Dave, forget the joint accounts; just direct deposit of the husband's salary to the wife's account -- you have not heard of anything like this ? :)

I have never heard of anything like that. Offhand I would doubt that forcing an employee to direct deposit into a spouse's account (Japan does have gender equality under the law - at least in theory - so any such rule should apply equally to working wives) would be legal under the Labor Law.

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Post #33 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:06 pm 
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Hi Dave, some impressions:
I wish I could search for more references in Japanese,
but I cannot. :)

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Post #34 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:25 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
Hi Dave, one person's impression .

Another impression .

Don't get me wrong. Luckily my wife has run our family finances throughout our 30+ years of marriage. She is way better organized and more diligent than I am. Meanwhile though, a lot of the stories about 'pocket money' allowances seem just wrong to me, at least for Tokyo. This city is simply too expensive for the amounts bandied about. There must be more to the family financing of daily life or Tokyo would be a ghost town - and it is anything but! :)

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Post #35 Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:08 am 
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ez4u wrote:
EdLee wrote:
Hi Dave, one person's impression .

Another impression .

Don't get me wrong. Luckily my wife has run our family finances throughout our 30+ years of marriage. She is way better organized and more diligent than I am. Meanwhile though, a lot of the stories about 'pocket money' allowances seem just wrong to me, at least for Tokyo. This city is simply too expensive for the amounts bandied about. There must be more to the family financing of daily life or Tokyo would be a ghost town - and it is anything but! :)


A couplathree times while I was working in large companies in Tokyo (OK, some years ago), someone would show me the contents of his wallet for the week. One commuter ticket, one company meal card, and a couple of thousand-yen notes. Any evening outings would be to establishments where the company runs a tab. The assumption is that a diligent salaryman wouldn't (or shouldn't) need more. I didn't ask if smokers got given a ciggie allowance too....

It reminded me of stories I've been told of industrial towns in the UK, where the husband would hand over his still-sealed paypacket to his wife, and be given an allowance in return. And further stories of companies that issue double-layer paypackets---an inner one with most of the money, contained in an outer one together with the remainer. I wonder if there are similar schemes in Tokyo?

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Post #36 Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:55 am 
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EdLee wrote:
hyperpape wrote:
even in the US, women control a majority of household spending
Is this an impression, or an educated guess, or is there some citation or census evidence ?

( In other words, how do you know ?
Approx. 117 million households in the U.S. in 2009.
I'm not challenging this claim; I'm curious to see the data. )
Not something I have a citation too off the top of my head, but one of those things I know I've read. Googling, here's one source (http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/insights/n ... rings.html), and one skeptical source (http://blogs.wsj.com/numbers/do-women-r ... ding-1054/). It sounds like it's conventional wisdom in the sales and marketing world, but I don't know how much weight I'd give that.

Thanks for asking :).

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