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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #21 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:28 am 
Gosei
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Actually, I'm changing my mind. Q15.

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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #22 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:55 am 
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I do not see a best move here.

The three space pincer is somewhat like a wedge, so I think that the temperature of the top side has dropped.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Flow of the stones?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Since the potential of the :bc: stone is limited on the top side, I am inclined to develop it on the left side. :)

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Offline gaius
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #23 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:09 am 
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daniel_the_smith predicted correctly on the first try - even though I don't think Q15 is bad. I also like Q14 and H17! But:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I were black, I'd tenuki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c My moves
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . 4 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 2 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

... but I will not dispute the validity of a professional's move!

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #24 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:34 am 
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Hm. I guess R14. No, R13. Let's see if the trend continues! :)

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Offline daal
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #25 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:55 pm 
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I think white needs to help r16, so r13 looks natural. The first place my eye went however was p16, but l17 looks too far away to try to link up now.

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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #26 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:32 am 
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R13, the two-space extension, seems like the most natural move here.

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Offline gaius
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #27 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:59 am 
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All THREE of you guessed correctly!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


By the way, do you think it's feasible to cut at P15 instead? Or are we afraid of the influence of black's two 4-4 stones?

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #28 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:04 am 
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I think a tenuki is in order now. I think C6 is where I'd play. D10 is second on my list, and I'd think about F17-- I don't think it' a good move but it intrigues me.

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Offline BaghwanB
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #29 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:31 am 
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C6 for me. Let W make the next move in the top right. And just to be persnickety didn't I get the first move right too? Or was it to fuzzy for a real call?


Bruce "A little from column A and a little from column B" Young

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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #30 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:43 am 
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In my opinion, tenuki is questionable. Take C6 for example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . O . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black's top-left stone is less effective due to :w4:, and due to the strength of white's two-space extension black's two-space jump group could come under attack.

Instead, my sequence of moves is:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . O . a . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . 2 . . . . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I could be wrong about all this though.

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Offline gaius
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #31 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:49 am 
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Question: should we put everything in "hide" tags? They're surely convenient if you want to post a whole bunch of diagrammes, to prevent clutter. But maybe there would be more interesting discussion if we don't use them for short posts. No?

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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #32 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:13 am 
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gaius wrote:
Question: should we put everything in "hide" tags? They're surely convenient if you want to post a whole bunch of diagrammes, to prevent clutter. But maybe there would be more interesting discussion if we don't use them for short posts. No?


As an observer, for ease of viewing I prefer the only unhidden diagrams to be the actual game.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #33 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:30 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 9 . . O . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The area around "a" is now a less interesting change of direction to me, because White's corner is stable. It would be nice to get "b" aiming at "c", but White would just protect right now. As White's top stone is the only weak potential burden, it feels more urgent to me than the big point of C6. I'd play H17 because it both prevents White from getting a decent extension, and helps the top left corner develop. I'd probably play something like (for both sides):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm6 Move 8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . O . 5 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #34 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:04 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Joseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a 9 . O . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After :b7:, :b9: or "a" is consistent. I prefer :b9:, to work with the :bc: stone, and it is the modern style. :)

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Offline gaius
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #35 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:29 pm 
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Bill Spight and Dusk Eagle both had the game-move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Joseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . O . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Some more ideas:
I initially thought about this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . O . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

, but with the white stone far away and low, it seems hard to use the wall. But maybe that sequence is actually good when white's stone is high? As in:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 7 . W . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

When in doubt, play the most aggressive move
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Offline gaius
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #36 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:07 am 
Lives in gote
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No reply yet? Then I'll move on. I actually don't think the position is very easy, for example, I didn't predict :w10: myself... What should black do now?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Joseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

When in doubt, play the most aggressive move
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #37 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:07 am 
Gosei
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P12? F17?

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That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com
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Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #38 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:09 am 
Gosei

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J15

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Offending ad removed
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #39 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:13 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Joseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black builds a framework with the :bc: stone. The Black stones in the top right can fend for themselves. :)

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Guess-the-next-move!
Post #40 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:22 am 
Oza
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j15 is the only consistent move, methinks.
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