EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match

hyperpape · **#781**

Thanks. The AGA summary suggested 152 required O5, which is why I asked: https://www.usgo.org/news/2019/07/shiks ... p-for-egf/.

Also interesting to see that H16 is small enough that O4 is probably better.

Uberdude · **#782**

Hmmm, after the push if no o5 I suppose the whole group could be in danger even if you can still connect to the lower side stones. k9 was a big thick move for both.

sorin · **#783**

I am surprised I don't hear much about white 128 - when white decided to capture at M8 (ponnuki) instead of capturing two stones in the upper right when black peeped. Stephanie approved of that during the game comment, but I thought it's better to capture two stones, and LZ seems to agree: it gives 90+% for capture two stones, vs 50+% for the ponnuki played in the game.

Uberdude · **#784**

Indeed sorin it was a big turning point of the game. Not only did Black's group connect to safety with profit but white lost the s15 tesuji which would be very nice yose later. I can only imagine Ryan lacked confidence for the fight if he answered and thought the simplifying trade of the game was good enough to preserve his advantage.

s10 connection was another one, Ilya could have tenukid to capture the 2 stones in the centre with k11 (LZ thought white preventing this in almost-sente with l11 was a good move for most prior moves) and not died, thanks to the p18 aji in a nice little tsumego.

Joaz Banbeck · **#785**

sorin wrote:

I am surprised I don't hear much about white 128 - when white decided to capture at M8 (ponnuki) instead of capturing two stones in the upper right when black peeped. Stephanie approved of that during the game comment, but I thought it's better to capture two stones, and LZ seems to agree: it gives 90+% for capture two stones, vs 50+% for the ponnuki played in the game.

I've looked at the position a bit, and if an uncaptured M8 extends southward, black takes a big chunk of territory on the lower side, and the black center group lives by killing L8.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O X . O O . . | $$ | X O O O O O O . . , O O X . X X X . . | $$ | . X O X O X O X . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X X . . X . X O . O O X . . | $$ | . X . X X O . X . . . X X 1 X O X O . | $$ | . . . . O O . X O O X . X O X O X . . | $$ | . . X . . . O O X O O X . O O X X . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . 7 O X X O . O O O X . | $$ | . . O X . O . . 6 4 X O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . 8 5 3 O X O X X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . B . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X X . X O O . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O X . O O . . | $$ | X O O O O O O . . , O O X . X X X . . | $$ | . X O X O X O X . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X X . . X . X O . O O X . . | $$ | . X . X X O . X . . . X X O . O X O . | $$ | . . . . O O . X O O X . X O . O X . . | $$ | . . X . . . O O . O O X . O O X X . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . O O X X O . O O O X . | $$ | . . O X . O . . X X X O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . X O O O X O X X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . B . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X X . X O O . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Once L8 is surrounded, white has only one eye and must tenuki back to O16.

Uberdude · **#786**

@Joaz, white 3 here should be better

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O X . O O . . | $$ | X O O O O O O . . , O O X . X X X . . | $$ | . X O X O X O X . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X X . . X . X O . O O X . . | $$ | . X . X X O . X . . . X X 1 X O X O . | $$ | . . . . O O . X O O X . X O X O X . . | $$ | . . X . . . O O X O O X . O O X X . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . . O X X O . O O O X . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . . X O O X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . O X O X X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . X . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X X . X O O . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#787**

I haven't seen any commentary, yet, but this was a complicated game for me to follow. It's hard for me to judge which areas were bigger, especially toward the late middle game.

Uberdude · **#788**

I've got an idea why Ryan ignored n13 and went for the trade: if he answers then black has in sente created the option for his group to live unconditionally at k13 so doesn't need to worry so much about being closed at k9 (he just answers to live in gote) or white taking the inside eyes forcing him to run out. That's clearly a gain for black compared to if white had peeped at n12 earlier (say instead of m9). So this simple logic shows that white would have an inferior position to if he could undo and play better in the past. So he goes for a drastically different result which cannot be argued with simple comparison to be slightly inferior because it requires much more judgement, but it ends up being hugely inferior. I often make this mistake myself too, particularly when fighting spirit gets the better of me.

sorin · **#789**

Uberdude wrote:

I've got an idea why Ryan ignored n13 and went for the trade: if he answers then black has in sente created the option for his group to live unconditionally at k13 so doesn't need to worry so much about being closed at k9 (he just answers to live in gote) or white taking the inside eyes forcing him to run out. That's clearly a gain for black compared to if white had peeped at n12 earlier (say instead of m9). So this simple logic shows that white would have an inferior position to if he could undo and play better in the past. So he goes for a drastically different result which cannot be argued with simple comparison to be slightly inferior because it requires much more judgement, but it ends up being hugely inferior. I often make this mistake myself too, particularly when fighting spirit gets the better of me.

Ah, psychological fallacy... :-)

Either that, or Ryan thought that he is ahead and wanted to simplify and play thick.

Uberdude · **#790**

Ryan will review his game with Ilya on Monday July 29th at https://www.youtube.com/c/nyiggo, so we can find out his thoughts.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/go.igo. ... 391291514/

Edit: here it is https://youtu.be/cyxSAsWU-Go?t=1386, he called not capturing the 2 stones a brainfart moment, he was also led astray by the fear of ko atari on the 2 stones, but as he says he can ignore that. Tough to review games like that, but I'm glad he plucked up the courage to do it.

EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match

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